What Happens if....

[EasTexRIII]

The Triumph 20226 tune has the secondaries partially closed. Look at the secondaries table in TuneECU. You can see how this lowers the torque from about 2300 - 3500 rpm in the dyno chart below. Triumph did that on purpose - probably to reduce the stress on the transmission. You don't want to open the secondaries open 100% in 20226 because it will run lean - the fuel won't match the air flow. Assuming you have the TORs and cat bypass, try the 20050 decel tune in the link. Unchecking the O2 box prevents the ECU from using the O2 sensor signal, that is, going into closed loop. The ECU uses that signal to adapt the fueling to keep it lean at low throttle position - for emissions. It does nothing above about 30% throttle. When you uncheck it, the ECU uses the fueling specified in the fuel tables. 20050 decel has some fuel added at low throttle, so under hard decel at zero throttle, the popping is reduced. It doesn't eliminate it completely but it's better than the stock tune. Let me know if you don't like this tune.

dougl:
Sorry to keep pounding on this, but let me please ask: If I don't install 20050 because I'm not concerned with the decal pop:
1. If I leave 20226 map alone, and make no other changes (stock air filter, TORS, No cat box) do I still need to uncheck O2 box?
(I wasn't sure if you meant for the O2 box to be unchecked on 20226 or 20050 or both)
2. If I leave 20226 map alone, and install RamAir, no other changes, will that cause harm to the engine from being too lean?
I'm not looking for more H/P from R/A. just get rid of plumbing purpose. But obviously not worth it if it causes harm to engine.
3. If that will cause no harm, but I will lose low/mid range torque - It would not be a good trade off to get rid of plumbing either.
I think I know what the answers will be.......... so if the RamAir will not be good for my purposes....... back to question #1
Sorry if I've opened up another can o' night crawlers!!!!!

 

[dougl]

dougl:
Sorry to keep pounding on this, but let me please ask: If I don't install 20050 because I'm not concerned with the decal pop:
1. If I leave 20226 map alone, and make no other changes (stock air filter, TORS, No cat box) do I still need to uncheck O2 box?
(I wasn't sure if you meant for the O2 box to be unchecked on 20226 or 20050 or both)
2. If I leave 20226 map alone, and install RamAir, no other changes, will that cause harm to the engine from being too lean?
I'm not looking for more H/P from R/A. just get rid of plumbing purpose. But obviously not worth it if it causes harm to engine.
3. If that will cause no harm, but I will lose low/mid range torque - It would not be a good trade off to get rid of plumbing either.
I think I know what the answers will be.......... so if the RamAir will not be good for my purposes....... back to question #1
Sorry if I've opened up another can o' night crawlers!!!!!

1) The reason to install the 20050 decel is not so much to reduce decel popping which you have now, but because it is a better tune than the stock tune. If you don't care about the extra power, stay with the 20226. You shouldn't uncheck the O2 box. There's no point if you're not going to retune.

The day I brought it in for a dyno test of the 20050 decel tune, I loaded the 20226 tune and had it dyno test. I rode home with the 20226 tune in there. I remember thinking that there wasn't much difference, even though I saw with my own eyes that there was a loss of 12-13 ft lbs of peak torque. I guess that unless you do more extensive mods, hardware plus retuning, you're not going to notice small power gains.


2) I'm pretty sure it would be too lean. I have Jardines on my bike and triple filters. The secondary throttle plates were removed. When I brought it in to have a PCIII installed and tuned, I loaded the 20226 tune. Before the PCIII was tuned, the A/F ratio was over 15. Way too lean! You're A/F with the Ramair may not be that high because you have a stock exhaust. The danger is that it will run too hot, eventually burn a valve or piston. I wouldn't put the Ramair on without retuning it.

3) Even if it doesn't ruin the engine, it's not going to run right with the Ramair, TOR's, and 20226 tune.

So, again, if you don't care about regaining those 12-13 ft lb of peak torque, don't do anything.

Did you read the tune in your ECU? I know you said it was 20226 but you should read it in TuneECU and make sure it is completely stock, with the secondary restrictions, for example. I don't see what the big deal is with leaving the plenum installed. If you need to work on the engine, it's easy to take it out.

 

[EasTexRIII]

1) The reason to install the 20050 decel is not so much to reduce decel popping which you have now, but because it is a better tune than the stock tune. If you don't care about the extra power, stay with the 20226. You shouldn't uncheck the O2 box. There's no point if you're not going to retune.
2) I'm pretty sure it would be too lean. I have Jardines on my bike and triple filters. The secondary throttle plates were removed. When I brought it in to have a PCIII installed and tuned, I loaded the 20226 tune. Before the PCIII was tuned, the A/F ratio was over 15. Way too lean! You're A/F with the Ramair may not be that high because you have a stock exhaust. The danger is that it will run too hot, eventually burn a valve or piston. I wouldn't put the Ramair on without retuning it.
3) Even if it doesn't ruin the engine, it's not going to run right with the Ramair, TOR's, and 20226 tune.

So, again, if you don't care about regaining those 12-13 ft lb of peak torque, don't do anything.

Did you read the tune in your ECU? I know you said it was 20226 but you should read it in TuneECU and make sure it is completely stock, with the secondary restrictions, for example. I don't see what the big deal is with leaving the plenum installed. If you need to work on the engine, it's easy to take it out.

Great info! Thanks! And you're right. It wasn't all that hard to remove...... That helps me a lot - I may revisit this later as I get more comfortable with tunes

 

[IMFASTTOO]

Great info! Thanks! And you're right. It wasn't all that hard to remove...... That helps me a lot - I may revisit this later as I get more comfortable with tunes

HEY why bother with all this if you dont care about HP just leave the bike stock as the stock bike makes all the low end TRQ you can use so dont waste your time or money leave it showroom stock it will run fine as my 09 Classic.does I wont do anything to this bike till I decide to get some serious power and then I will install a 3 into 1 pipe , 3 K&N filters and retune and make 165 HP and 165 TRQ that will make a seroius performance boost .

 

[EasTexRIII]

HEY why bother with all this if you dont care about HP just leave the bike stock as the stock bike makes all the low end TRQ you can use so dont waste your time or money leave it showroom stock it will run fine .

Well, I'm not runnin from horse power. Just that the ultimate goal is not Top end speed - I like the torque @ low to mid range. I just want to make the bike as efficient as it can be, within my ability to do myself, without taking it to a dealership & my ability to afford. This is the first bike I've had in 30 years so I'm just trying to figure things out. I know that it is not going to be as efficient as possible when it is "showroom stock" from the factory. I know the TORS don't turn it into a racing machine, but they sound good.

But anyway, Thank you again dougl, Claviger, xlr8tion for your time & input!

 

[Idaho Red Rocket 3]

ETR3 consider adding a Dobeck Performand AFR Plus. It will give you control of the afr as you can adjust it to whatever afr you want it to be and whenever you want to change it. It is controlled in real time with a wideband closed loop set up. It allows you to make changes without the need of retuning or a dyno. It gives a power bost, mileage boost and takes the heat off the right leg. Check it out. Call Dillon and tell him Bill in Nampa sent you. They have discounts for forum members and military.

 

[EasTexRIII]

Thanks Bill, I have thought about that actually. I've read other threads that you discussed the AFR+ I will give em a call & see if it would be something I can work with. Seems like a great alternative

 

[Mark Dunn]

Will do! What will be the detriment of running the RAMAIR with AFR+ on a stock catted exhaust?

Hi,

I have a 2009 standard with RamAir, AFR+ and D&D collector/mufflers. The header is stock Triumph.

I did the changes in stages, starting with the D&Ds coupled with the Triumph tune for TORs/no cat. The most obvious difference (apart from being louder) was a very noticeable increase in low end torque below 3000 rpm.

The addition of the Ramair and AFR+ added a bit more torque throughout the whole rev range, but moreover made everything much smoother.

The only slight problem I have is that when hot, at idle the afr is between 12.5 and 13.0 which is a bit rich. Other people with similar set-ups don't have the issue so I believe it's peculiar to my bike. Nothing I've tried (too much to list here) alleviates this slight annoyance. I await an epiphany!

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Mark Dunn

 

[Claviger]

A really good resource to educate yourself on EFI if you want to learn more is here:

Principles of Tuning Programmable EFI

The principles hold true for all motors, that is simply an opensource engine management computer that has incredible community support, and as a result has some really well written articles on tuning principles.

 

[xlr8tion]

A really good resource to educate yourself on EFI if you want to learn more is here:

Principles of Tuning Programmable EFI

The principles hold true for all motors, that is simply an opensource engine management computer that has incredible community support, and as a result has some really well written articles on tuning principles.

I'd rather stay married than read that and I rather fight ISIS than stay married