4th gear issues R3R 2011

[Pants]

BSD performance/engineering in Peterborough has a very good reputation.Might be worth contacting

 

[RocketmanBristol]

It's the customs duty as you say and what if it went missing in transit that make me somewhat hesitant to be honest. If Robinson were this side of the pond I would be more comfortable with it. Last night I was pondering if dogs are rounded and dog rings or gears w/ dogs need replacing, well I could order those from Triumph and slide them on the shaft myself. It's not like it was popping out of gear before.

(This is nothing to down play Robinson, it's because I am a bit of a tight arse unless I'm really decided on where I will spend money, as money is hard earned. Then once I make up my mind it's like money no problem. Like I'll save a pound on a circlip but spend a grand on some other gizmo). Also the bike is worth what 5-6k?

There is another underlying issue that I need to get to the bottom of unrelated to engine, handling seems affected since I got knocked off and had a 15 mph lowside. Engine bars took most of the impact but something might be out of true. I'll put up another thread about this item as it's a whole other thing.

So do I go down the road of putting more money into the bike?

But as I'm typing this now it's helping me clarify a plan. I do love that Rocket.

Shafts do need looking at by a gearbox engineer in person, it's the first time I'm seeing dogs outside of a photo, so I don't know what is bad and what isn't really. Robinson by the sounds of it, with other members reports, have the experience with Rocket transmission. They have designed a modification to the shafts by cutting the circlip groove deeper and using a deeper circlip. Also the backcutting which suits another idea I have for TTS supercharger addition.

See my thinking switches from asking should I not replace a circlip to save £2 to spending proper moolah and back and forth.

So I'm going to spend some money and this is the order.

1. Put swingarm/bevel box/rear wheel back on and get frame/headstock/forks checked
2. 'Send input and output shafts to Robinson'.
3. Order new fork, detent wheel, maybe other bits
4. Supercharge with TTS kit now it's got transmission to handle it
5. Make a mental note to change what seems to be a habit I have of doing clutchless upshifts when pootling around on the Rocket as that might of caused it. Years of riding silky smooth VFRs and Blackbirds made me develop that habit.

Item 4 may or may not happen. Gotta make my mind up about that

Hear your pain Martin, not all of us have/ want to throw endless money into a bike with little return, I,ve spend the last 3 years fettling mine and it still doesn’t run how I would like it too.
Everyone here has been great with advice and obviously everyone has an opinion of what is right and wrong to do do get it running correctly but I hate blindly throwing money at a problem and so I’ve kind of fallen out of love with the old girl!
I may get inspired again or may just cut my losses and sale, looking at current prices it would probably make more in parts!

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Hear your pain Martin, not all of us have/ want to throw endless money into a bike with little return, I,ve spend the last 3 years fettling mine and it still doesn’t run how I would like it too.
Everyone here has been great with advice and obviously everyone has an opinion of what is right and wrong to do do get it running correctly but I hate blindly throwing money at a problem and so I’ve kind of fallen out of love with the old girl!
I may get inspired again or may just cut my losses and sale, looking at current prices it would probably make more in parts!

Sorry to hear you've lost your passion for the old girl. I'm kinda in the same dilemma, although I am rather fond of the Rocket, it's such a behemoth and has such stature on the road and gets all the attention when parked up. Maybe it's cos I own it?
My bike is the best type there is cos I have one... If I had a Suzuki Boulevard M1800 would I just be gushing the same things about that
Guess I'm loyal to my bikes and for years have sunk money into bikes that probably don't warrant it. Luckily just before the Rocket started playing up I was getting a Blackbird back on the road with a good £2k spent in total (I changed all bearings(wheels, swingarm, suspension linkage, headrace)/rotors/put braided hoses/fork rebuilds/oil cooler lines/chain and sprocket/ even got a respray. Sure it looks and rides like new now but at the end of the day it's a 2005 bike with 48k on it. Maybe no age for a Blackbird and sure it's proper mint now, showroom condition, but it's worth what 2-3k?... and I sunk at least 2k to get it like that.

Maybe that's just the nature of how it is with our toys? Total opposite of a mate of mine who you would think is a bike trader, he's got no loyalty to a bike be owns, forever chopping them out, he says the secret is to not fall in love with any so you never put money into a bike once you have it. Just keep changing bikes for around the same kinda money, sometimes putting in a few hundred, sometimes making a bit. He's not a trader as in there is no overall profit in it, but whenever I see him he's on a different bike. It's like the bike equivalent of being footloose and fancy free I guess.

 

[sonny]

Very interesting thread. Will be pulling the transmission soon. Plan on shipping it to robinson.

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Very interesting thread. Will be pulling the transmission soon. Plan on shipping it to robinson.

Sounds like very similar symptoms you have. Will be interesting to see what state your cogs and dogs are in. I'm leaning towards doing the same and shipping it off to Robinson to be 'worked' but not 100% yet. Going to get my frame checked before making any decision on the transmission.

 

[R-III-R Turbo]

Re the gears being a bit wobbly, maybe this dude can help determine what the problem is - he had wobbly gears too

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Re the gears being a bit wobbly, maybe this dude can help determine what the problem is - he had wobbly gears too

Good spot thanks From watching the video a few times it's 3rd and 4th on the output shaft that are wobbling, exact same as mine. I will try to get in contact with them.

Interesting him saying that 5th gear on the input shaft is a bit tight and should spin freely it's the other way around as I understand it from here and from your videos, the opposing belleville washers giving it a bit of tension.

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Haha I just noticed the first comment on the video

R-III-R Turbo1 year ago (edited)
That last "stiff" gear is 5th input, it has 2 opposing belleville washers on the back of it to make sure it has that tension on it. The reason is, without it, the gear would spin freely with 4th's dogs and you would find it difficult to engage 5th. The 2 rocking gears are 3rd and 4th output respectively, from the looks of it a circlip must've came out ,,, is that what happened?

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Bringing this up to date. So I've spoken to these fellas who are just down the road from me Inside the British Motorcycle Industry: Nova Race Transmissions

I mentioned about Robinson and Rocket owners (well on this forum it would seem anyway) using them as the goto place for gearbox rebuild / modification work and that it would be good to have someone this side of the pond who could do the same work.

Their view of back cutting of dogs on a standard bike transmission, they said it's not something they would to get into as a service on standard bike gearbox because when you're back cutting, you're removing the hardened metal and unless you know exactly what metal composition the gear / dog is made of, you don't know exactly what hardening process to use to harden it again. Also when back cutting, the shift forks will need to move over the dog ring or gear just every so slightly further to compensate for the back cutting, so unless you're engineering new selector forks too, it could even exacerbate a gear slipping out issue. They were not saying it would cause these problems on the Rocket, just things to think about when getting into back cutting done and it's not like it's a race bike trans where you not looking for longevity per se, race bikes transmissions are serviced and re-worked even during a season, so they couldn't guarantee reliability on a back cut dog after it has another say 40k miles on it, so they said it's something they wouldn't want to get involved in offering as a service to Rocket owners this side of the pond.

On the cutting the circlip groove deeper and using a larger clip, they said they could have a go if I wanted, but again would be cutting away hardened surface. They said it's an easy mistake to make getting the circlip the wrong way, if you're not aware or looking for it, so when I do it if I'm not sure to bring it by, they will have a check for me

On the wobbly 4th gear, they suggested that might actually be normal. 4th output needs oil between it and the bush in the centre of it and that gap will will allow it. They suggested ordering a new bush as I'm getting parts anyway to repair it, see if that tightens it up somewhat.

The cause of the woes for my case, the 1-4th shift fork is very slightly bent and worn, it could of been caused by clutchless shifts (and there were a few heavy down ones I do remember now tbh) or maybe when it took a good thud when the bike had a low side some while back and the engine bars took the brunt of the impact which would of transferred that into side jolt on the engine/trans?.

Anyway I am going to replace this little lot. (I could of possible got away with new shift fork but I decided while it's open, make it all fresh and like new)
So around £340 Looking for the positive, I thank God that it wasn't a catastrophic failure and lockup while hooning it at 100 odd mph, phew..

Gear Selector
SELECTOR FORK, 1st/4th gear T1190650 @ £67.69 x1 = £67.69
DETENT WHEEL T11900004 @ £17.92 X1 = £17.92
E CIRCLIP T3500044 @ £0.44 X1 = £0.44
SCREW PAN HEAD TX M6X25 ENC T3331041 @ £0.48 X1 = £0.48
KIT DETENT ARM & SPRING T1190307 @ £13.36 X1 = £13.36
Output Shaft
CIRCLIPS 29X1.5 T3500202 @ £3.01 X3 = £9.03
THRUST WASHER 41ODX1.5 T1180051 @ £2.54 X1 = £2.54
BUSH, SHIELD, SPLINED T1180267 @ 22.24 X2 = £45.08
DOG RING SPLINED T1180444 @ 35.20 X1 = £35.20
Input Shaft
CIRCLIP, 32MM SHAFT T3500003 @ £3.77 X3 = £11.31
SHIM STEEL, 45X32X1.0 T1180053 @ £ 2.54 X1 = £2.54
BELLEVILLE WASHER, 40.5X0.6. T1180288 @ £3.88 X2 =£7.76
SHIM, STEEL, 50X40X0.5 T1180289 @£2.54 X1 = £2.54
GEAR INPUT 3RD/4TH. T1180235 @ £92.82 X1 = £92.82
THRUST WASHER 38ODX1.5 T1180250 @ £ 3.37 X1 = £3.37
SCREW TORX, M6X14 T3332704 @ £2.81 X3 = £8.43
Sump filter bolts
SCREW, M6X12, ENC RAW T3051062 @ £0.81 X6 = £4.82
Fuel Pump (been off and on a few times now so might as well do the seal)
SEAL FUEL PUMP E25 T2401367 @ £13.75 X1 = £13.75

 

[Mike Rocket]

Bringing this up to date. So I've spoken to these fellas who are just down the road from me Inside the British Motorcycle Industry: Nova Race Transmissions

I mentioned about Robinson and Rocket owners (well on this forum it would seem anyway) using them as the goto place for gearbox rebuild / modification work and that it would be good to have someone this side of the pond who could do the same work.

Their view of back cutting of dogs on a standard bike transmission, they said it's not something they would to get into as a service on standard bike gearbox because when you're back cutting, you're removing the hardened metal and unless you know exactly what metal composition the gear / dog is made of, you don't know exactly what hardening process to use to harden it again. Also when back cutting, the shift forks will need to move over the dog ring or gear just every so slightly further to compensate for the back cutting, so unless you're engineering new selector forks too, it could even exacerbate a gear slipping out issue. They were not saying it would cause these problems on the Rocket, just things to think about when getting into back cutting done and it's not like it's a race bike trans where you not looking for longevity per se, race bikes transmissions are serviced and re-worked even during a season, so they couldn't guarantee reliability on a back cut dog after it has another say 40k miles on it, so they said it's something they wouldn't want to get involved in offering as a service to Rocket owners this side of the pond.

On the cutting the circlip groove deeper and using a larger clip, they said they could have a go if I wanted, but again would be cutting away hardened surface. They said it's an easy mistake to make getting the circlip the wrong way, if you're not aware or looking for it, so when I do it if I'm not sure to bring it by, they will have a check for me

On the wobbly 4th gear, they suggested that might actually be normal. 4th output needs oil between it and the bush in the centre of it and that gap will will allow it. They suggested ordering a new bush as I'm getting parts anyway to repair it, see if that tightens it up somewhat.

The cause of the woes for my case, the 1-4th shift fork is very slightly bent and worn, it could of been caused by clutchless shifts (and there were a few heavy down ones I do remember now tbh) or maybe when it took a good thud when the bike had a low side some while back and the engine bars took the brunt of the impact which would of transferred that into side jolt on the engine/trans?.

Anyway I am going to replace this little lot. (I could of possible got away with new shift fork but I decided while it's open, make it all fresh and like new)
So around £340 Looking for the positive, I thank God that it wasn't a catastrophic failure and lockup while hooning it at 100 odd mph, phew..

Gear Selector
SELECTOR FORK, 1st/4th gear T1190650 @ £67.69 x1 = £67.69
DETENT WHEEL T11900004 @ £17.92 X1 = £17.92
E CIRCLIP T3500044 @ £0.44 X1 = £0.44
SCREW PAN HEAD TX M6X25 ENC T3331041 @ £0.48 X1 = £0.48
KIT DETENT ARM & SPRING T1190307 @ £13.36 X1 = £13.36
Output Shaft
CIRCLIPS 29X1.5 T3500202 @ £3.01 X3 = £9.03
THRUST WASHER 41ODX1.5 T1180051 @ £2.54 X1 = £2.54
BUSH, SHIELD, SPLINED T1180267 @ 22.24 X2 = £45.08
DOG RING SPLINED T1180444 @ 35.20 X1 = £35.20
Input Shaft
CIRCLIP, 32MM SHAFT T3500003 @ £3.77 X3 = £11.31
SHIM STEEL, 45X32X1.0 T1180053 @ £ 2.54 X1 = £2.54
BELLEVILLE WASHER, 40.5X0.6. T1180288 @ £3.88 X2 =£7.76
SHIM, STEEL, 50X40X0.5 T1180289 @£2.54 X1 = £2.54
GEAR INPUT 3RD/4TH. T1180235 @ £92.82 X1 = £92.82
THRUST WASHER 38ODX1.5 T1180250 @ £ 3.37 X1 = £3.37
SCREW TORX, M6X14 T3332704 @ £2.81 X3 = £8.43
Sump filter bolts
SCREW, M6X12, ENC RAW T3051062 @ £0.81 X6 = £4.82
Fuel Pump (been off and on a few times now so might as well do the seal)
SEAL FUEL PUMP E25 T2401367 @ £13.75 X1 = £13.75

Another fantastic write up. Thanks.