Free unrestricted maps for Rocket R GT and TFC now online

[Penner]

Thanks. I mean, it's difficult to understand why changing the AFR value wouldn't change the target AFR that the bike is trying to achieve. And I have heard reports from people changing the F/L tables and the bike gradually "unlearning" the change they've put in. But I don't know/remember if they were changing them naively or incorrectly. My main concern is that if the adaptations apply to the F/L tables, then naively changing them might just be pushing the range of learnable corrections to its extreme (perhaps intentionally?) and the bike is no longer able to adapt to conditions.

Do you have anything that describes how the various tables and their values are used by the system in calculating the fueling? Perhaps that would answer all my questions.

One more question: have you seen the stock Storm tables? My understanding is that the engine and related components are essentially the same as the vanilla Rocket 3 and so I'd be interested to see how your improved tune compares to what they put on the Storm.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Yes. Just changing fuel tables with an active O2 sensor and AFR-tables left at 14.5 will definitly be overrun by the ECU. First by the short term fuel trims temporarily and then by the long term trims finally. You have to disconnect the O2 sensor or change the AFR-target to prevent that.
Fueling with the Rocket is just about the F and L tables. (And as always by sensor signals like temperatures and pressure and the active and stored values from the O2 sensor. Plus some others.)
Unlike the Delphi ECU changing the AFR target has no direct impact on fueling.
I am not yet sure about the Storm map. ( I hope will know soon) My best guess so far is that the ETV tables are the same or at least similar to the TFC map. That means throttle opening is still restricted to 75%.

 

[nullpointer]

Yes. Just changing fuel tables with an active O2 sensor and AFR-tables left at 14.5 will definitly be overrun by the ECU. First by the short term fuel trims temporarily and then by the long term trims finally. You have to disconnect the O2 sensor or change the AFR-target to prevent that.
Fueling with the Rocket is just about the F and L tables. (And as always by sensor signals like temperatures and pressure and the active and stored values from the O2 sensor. Plus some others.)
Unlike the Delphi ECU changing the AFR target has no direct impact on fueling.
I am not yet sure about the Storm map. ( I hope will know soon) My best guess so far is that the ETV tables are the same or at least similar to the TFC map. That means throttle opening is still restricted to 75%.

So as a dyno tuner, what is your process, if you don't mind me asking? Do you basically set the AFR targets away from 14.5 and then adjust F/L until your wideband sensors (or whatever you use) gives you the actual AFR value you want? Does the ECU do anything at all with AFR targets that are something other than 14.5? Because (let's assume for argument's sake) it uses AFR=14.5 as the trigger to enable closed-loop, then surely it would just use any other value as "operate open-loop" and then ignore the actual AFR value entirely? So what's the point of making any changes to the AFR table other than to change from 14.5 to something else (or vice versa)?

 

[dougl]

I assumed something like this. But Penner's reply suggests that the AFR values don't work exactly like that, which has got me confused. Assuming the narrowband O2 sensors are similar/the same as used on other bikes I've worked with, then your lower-range estimate of 14.1 sounds about right. I have had better/more reliable results with Delphi systems when trying to keep a good proportion of the table contents around 14.1 and above so the learned adaptations can be extrapolated by the system to also help hit open-loop targets more accurately under changeable conditions.

There is a manual from Tuneboy (Jake McDonald), which was later duplicated by Alain Fontaine as Tuneecu. This explains a lot. Tuneboy says if the AFR table value is less than 14.5 (stoich), it won't use closed loop. I've seen stuff about mixing (interpolating) between closed and open loop outside the 14.5 block but nothing definitive. It's kind of academic. What's the point of using closed loop besides reducing emissions and saving petrol? I've disabled it by disconnecting/removing the O2 sensors on 2 Rocket III's and a T120. No difference in how they ran. One of the Rockets had a PCIII which was tuned to perfection - smooth at the low end and massive power at the high end. Penner has unrestricted the top end power by opening up the ETV tables. There's also the issue of the Torque Limit table which needs to be addressed. I put the TuneBoy manual under resources.

 

[dougl]

Ah. I've just found this: https://tuneecu.net/Tunes_in_Hex_and_dat/TuneECU/Adaptive_Fuel_Systems_EN.pdf

A quick flick through suggests that the F/L tables are used directly to calculate the fueling, and the AFR table is used (in closed loop) purely for calculating adaptations to the F table. So it assumes that the F table gets it right (without using the AFR table), and the latter is used just as part of the feedback mechanism? So you basically need to adjust them in tandem? Or have I misunderstood again?

It doesn't ignore the AFR values. See above. In closed loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table and 14.5. Then it adjusts the fuel using the lambda sensor voltage. In open loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table value and the corresponding AFR table value.

 

[nullpointer]

It doesn't ignore the AFR values. See above. In closed loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table and 14.5. Then it adjusts the fuel using the lambda sensor voltage. In open loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table value and the corresponding AFR table value.

That contradicts what Penner said though. I think I'll just leave mine stock for the time being until the details become more clear. Thanks everyone

 

[nullpointer]

There is a manual from Tuneboy (Jake McDonald), which was later duplicated by Alain Fontaine as Tuneecu. This explains a lot. Tuneboy says if the AFR table value is less than 14.5 (stoich), it won't use closed loop. I've seen stuff about mixing (interpolating) between closed and open loop outside the 14.5 block but nothing definitive. It's kind of academic. What's the point of using closed loop besides reducing emissions and saving petrol? I've disabled it by disconnecting/removing the O2 sensors on 2 Rocket III's and a T120. No difference in how they ran. One of the Rockets had a PCIII which was tuned to perfection - smooth at the low end and massive power at the high end. Penner has unrestricted the top end power by opening up the ETV tables. There's also the issue of the Torque Limit table which needs to be addressed. I put the TuneBoy manual under resources.

I'm not bothered about emissions. But I would like to reduce fuel consumption when at cruise and heat in cities. But the interplay between the tables still eludes me

 

[Idaho Red Rocket 3]

I dropped the lower RPM AFR numbers to 13.80. From 2000 RPM to 5000 RPM I set then at 14.2 as cruising happens in this range. I use pure gasoline. Is it Good, Bad or Indifferent ? I hope someone soon figures out how we can use the Torque Limit page.

 

[dougl]

I'm not bothered about emissions. But I would like to reduce fuel consumption when at cruise and heat in cities. But the interplay between the tables still eludes me

What year is your Rocket? Is it stock? Have you ever had a bike dyno tuned? Why do you want to modify the tune?

 

[dougl]

I dropped the lower RPM AFR numbers to 3.80. From 2000 RPM to 5000 RPM I set then at 14.2 as cruising happens in this range. I use pure gasoline. Is it Good, Bad or Indifferent ? I hope someone soon figures out how we can use the Torque Limit page.

I nominate you.

 

[Penner]

It doesn't ignore the AFR values. See above. In closed loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table and 14.5. Then it adjusts the fuel using the lambda sensor voltage. In open loop, it calculates the amount of fuel from the F (L) table value and the corresponding AFR table value.

Maybe we have a misuderstanding. The value in the AFR-map even in the closed loop area is not part of the fuel calculation. There is no 10% increase in fuel if you change target from 14.5 to 13.1.
That is different from the Delphi ECU where AFR tables are part of the calculation even outside of closed loop.

So as a dyno tuner, what is your process, if you don't mind me asking? Do you basically set the AFR targets away from 14.5 and then adjust F/L until your wideband sensors (or whatever you use) gives you the actual AFR value you want? Does the ECU do anything at all with AFR targets that are something other than 14.5? Because (let's assume for argument's sake) it uses AFR=14.5 as the trigger to enable closed-loop, then surely it would just use any other value as "operate open-loop" and then ignore the actual AFR value entirely? So what's the point of making any changes to the AFR table other than to change from 14.5 to something else (or vice versa)?

Yes, that is pretty much it. It is like an on/off switch. The stock O2 sensor is great at 14.5 AFR, but pretty blind to anything outside of it. There it can just read too rich or too lean, but has no idea of how much. If AFR is set to 14.5 and O2 sensor reading is off it will simply start to inject more or less fuel until it has reached the sweet point of 14.5.