Carpenter 240 dyno question

Is it more or less potential tuned torque with the longer head to collector primary lengths?
Ah easy!
Automotive - Header design?
I have the math down for it I just need help figuring out the length for the primary tubes. (Peak Torque RPM) = ((Primary Pipe Area)(88,200)/(1cyl displacement)) I was looking for ~6k peak torque so I decided to plug in some different pipe areas to see which peak torque rpm I liked. 1 3/4" pipe area = 2.41in^2 1 cyl displacement = ((3500/6) * 0.0610237) = 35.597in^3/cylinder Plug into formula - Peak TQ RPM = ((2.41)(88200)/(35.597)) Peak TQ RPM = 5,971 RPM This is the closest to what I was looking for. Now for a street car, a good multiplication factor for collector size is anywhere from 1.6 - 1.8. I want to be a little more aggressive so I'm going with 1.75. So to find it we take the OD of the primary pipe and multiply it times the 1.75 and we get 3.0625 so 3" pipe is almost perfect. I wouldn't want the collector size to be too long so I feel 5" should be good, depending on the fit with the cats. I just don't know how to calculate the tube length. I've searched far and wide but there's no definite answer. Anyone have any idea? Thanks for your time. -David EDIT: Ok, so I found a formula from A. Graham Bell's book that says header pipe length is ((850*ED)/RPM) - 3 with ED being 180 + degrees the exhaust valve opens before reaching BDC and RPM is the RPM you're tuning to. So I looked up stock cam specs and the EO is 52 degrees. So my length should be ((850*(180+52))/RPM) - 3 which would give me 32.86 inches. Can anyone run through these numbers with me? Any engineers confirm? Fluid dynamics gives me headaches.

Reference Automotive - Header design?
 
But then
They lost me:eek::(:D

If you want to see the formulae un-corrupted go here:

Automotive - Header design?

There is no way to predict accurately exhaust geometry without a good computational engine simulation. Too much variation mainly due to the exhaust gas temperature varying from one end to the other. What you are trying to do is to size the area to achieve a certain flow velocity and a length to create a path for the pressure waves. These pressure waves travel at the speed of sound ... and speed of sound depends on the gas temperature ... which varies across the pipe length! So the more you simplify, the more assumptions have to be made. These rules of thumb are as good as you're gonna get. Le me explain to you where they come from, such that you understand them better. Basics When the valve opens, a huge pressure wave is sent down the exhaust pipe. Pressure waves are the way gas molecules «communicate» between each other. The message that is sent is «We have lot us coming thru, make some space». This message travels at the speed of sound in all directions. The higher the pressure inside the cylinder, the stronger the pressure wave. Once it reaches an area change, the pressure wave continues to go on, but at a weaker pressure. The larger the area change, the weaker the signal. But it also sends back another pressure wave, but this time a really weak one (think vacuum). This one goes back to the valve with the following message: «We found some free space, it's ok to come this way.» So when this «vacuum» arrives at the valve, it actually helps emptying the cylinder. If they arrive and the valve is close (whether weak or strong pressure waves), they just bounce back into the pipe with the same strength as they came, kind of saying: «There is no way thru here, don't come in here.» These pressure waves bounce back like that until the pressure equalizes across the pipe. Of course, because in an engine the exhaust valve keeps opening with fresh new pressurized gases, it never stabilizes. So the pressure waves are everywhere, crossing path with each other. Once in the collector, they go back into the other primary pipes (they look for an exit everywhere) and once they go back into the actual outlet pipe, once they reach another area change (cat, muffler, atmosphere. etc), they send back another weak pressure wave that will go back into every primary pipe (even weaker as it is divided by number of primary pipes). You can see the whole mathematical puzzle of keeping track of all of those pressure waves. And I haven't even got into the math, as when they cross, their pressure combines, which affects their local temperature, which affect their local speed of sound, which means that their actual speed slows down or speeds up while they cross. A big mess. Simplification primary pipe area What we know is that the smaller the pipe area, the stronger will be the pressure wave. But if the area is too small, the actual flow will choke. So it has been found that the port area that creates average port velocities of about 75 m/s performs best. So the volumetric flow rate ˙ V V˙ is equal to the port velocity v p vp times the port area A p Ap: ˙ V = v p A p V˙=vpAp But the volumetric flow rate is also dependent on what the engine produces which is one cylinder volume V c y l Vcyl per exhaust event duration θ θ at the given rpm ω ω: ˙ V = V c y l ω θ V˙=Vcylωθ So: ω = A p θ v p V c y l ω=ApθvpVcyl This is in SI units, so to convert angular velocity from rpm to rad/s, area from in² to m², angle duration from deg to rad and volume from in³ to m³, we have to include the following conversion factor: ω = 6.5617 A p θ v p V c y l ω=6.5617ApθvpVcyl If we assume that the exhaust duration is one stroke, then θ θ = 180° and that v p vp = 75 m/s then: 6.5617 ( 180 ) ( 75 ) = 88 583 6.5617(180)(75)=88583 or: ω = 88 583 A p V c y l ω=88583ApVcyl Which looks a lot like your equation. You referred to A. Graham Bell. His equation for the diameter of the exhaust pipe D p Dp, based on exhaust length L L, is: D p = 2.1 √ V c y l 25 ( L + 3 ) Dp=2.1Vcyl25(L+3) Putting it for the area A p Ap instead: A p = π 4 D 2 p = π 4 2.1 2 V c y l 25 ( L + 3 ) Ap=π4Dp2=π42.12Vcyl25(L+3) Replacing L L by his other equation you mentioned, we get: A p = 3.46 V c y l 25 ( 850 θ ω ) = V c y l ω 6141.6 θ Ap=3.46Vcyl25(850θω)=Vcylω6141.6θ But in his equation, V c y l Vcyl is in cm³ so it has to be converted to in³ to be consistent with our other equation, so it becomes: A p = V c y l ω 374.8 θ Ap=Vcylω374.8θ or: ω = 374.8 A p θ V c y l ω=374.8ApθVcyl Comparing to our theoretical equation (in red) 374.8 = 6.5617 v p 374.8=6.5617vp or v p vp = 57.11 m/s. This might seem different than the 75 m/s of the previous equation, but Bell doesn't assume the exhaust duration is 180°, he takes the 180° + the exhaust valve opening duration. If we assume an exhaust valve opening of 55°, then θ θ = 180 + 55: 374.8 ∗ ( 180 + 55 ) = 88 078 374.8∗(180+55)=88078 Which is close to the 88 200 that you find in the equation you gave in the OP. Conclusion: v p vp is found empirically. Bell took care of including a better approximation of exhaust duration in his equation to find it, so it might be a better assumption. But it is far from an exact science. Collector area You mentioned that the «multiplication factor for collector size is anywhere from 1.6 - 1.8». Where does it come from? I told you that it is the area change that counts when comes the time to reflect the strong pressure wave as a weak pressure wave. The largest area change is when the pipe exit directly to the atmosphere (straight pipe), in which case the area ratio is infinite. But it has been found that when the area ratio is larger than about 6, the effect increases very little, meaning that it is almost like being straight pipe. Here is how we calculate the collector's area ( A c Ac) vs the primary pipe's area( A p Ap). The primary pipe exits into the collector pipe, but also in the other primary pipes (say there are N N primary pipes in total), then if we want the area ratio to be greater than 6: 6 < A c + ( N − 1 ) A p A p 6 7 − N AcAp>7−N So, if N N = 4, then A c A p > 3 AcAp>3 and since the area is proportional to the square of the diameter, D c d p > √ 3 Dcdp>3 or 1.73. That is where 1.6-1.8 comes from. You have a V6 - so your collector have 3 primary pipes, not 4 - thus a diameter ratio of 2 would be best suited. Primary pipe length To define the length of the pipe, we know that a pressure wave has to travel the entire length of the primary pipe L L, then comes back to the valve and all of that at the speed of sound v s vs, so the time t t taken to do that is: t = 2 L v s t=2Lvs We usually want it to return when the valve closes to help empty the cylinder. The time between the opening of the exhaust valve (when the pressure begins its journey down the pipe) and the end of the exhaust stroke can be found with the crank angle duration θ θ and the rpm ω ω: t = θ ω t=θω Such that: 2 L v s = θ ω 2Lvs=θω Or: L = v s θ 2 ω L=vsθ2ω Those are in SI units, so converting rad/s to rpm, rad to deg and m to in you have to include the following conversion factor: L = 3.28 v s θ ω L=3.28vsθω you should already see a resemblance with Bell's equation: L = 850 θ ω − 3 L=850θω−3 Where θ θ is 180° + the exhaust valve opening duration. We already mentioned that the speed of sound varies a lot from one end of the pipe to the other, so we can't use the true speed of sound. But we can used some sort of «average» speed of sound for the pipe. This «average» speed is found empirically by testing different pipe length on the same engine. Bell's equation has 850 = 3.28 v s 850=3.28vs or v s vs = 259 m/s. Bell just subtracted 3 in from this calculated length to take into account the exhaust port length. Of course, you can adjust this number for your particular engine, but this equation is such a crude approximation that it probably wouldn't matter much anyway. Collector length For the collector length, if you have an area ratio greater than 6, it doesn't matter much: For the exhaust gases, it will feel like they reached the atmosphere. The greater the area ratio, the less significant is the length. Still, in one of my books, there is a «large ballpark» figure for a high-speed drag-racing engine which says that the collector's length should be half the primary pipe length. If the primary pipe length is a crude approximation, imagine how worst is this one. With a stock vehicle - with cat, muffler and exit pipe - these would also have an effect, but very little if you've managed to respect the area ratio greater than 6.

Reference Automotive - Header design?
 
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I found my simpler version:

** SOLD ** Bargain Reband header and CES muffler $Au800

116_0312_02_z-header_tech-graph.jpg
 
If we look closely at the carpenter pipe it looks like somone welded the little header flanges of the OEM pipe to the exhaust. Where is the big ugly aluminum manifold and the high horsepower springs ? Or are we restricting something here ?
I did not see that, depends what is there obviously. It could be ground out to equal the alloy plate on the Carp pipe, or not...
 
I did not see that, depends what is there obviously. It could be ground out to equal the alloy plate on the Carp pipe, or not...
Ya but I bet its not as big. In fact if he put as much thought in it as it appears I got 20 bucks that say he cut them off a headet and had the pipe tig welded while it was hanging on the engine. Lucky he didn't have a internal arc. Now if he engimeered that the big question now arises ? Who put the kit together except the head we can see its been on the Haas. And Bob was particular he assembles the head and sets the shims.
 
This is a bike I am inquiring about so only details I know are Carpenter Street Rod exhaust and running 3 foam filters with mass air flow delete and supposedly 240 kit.
Ok so maybe the welded flanges on the exhaust could be a problem especislly if he just used the OEM ones and as Nev mentioned if you open the insides up. You'll have to check. Myself not a expert I think the feller did not mess with the insides of the and they are restricting. Not sure what you got going on for three foam filters could we get a picture of the other side? Maybe its being evenly choked on both intake and exhaust. Also what is Mass Air Flow Delete ? Been riding a Rocket since 06 and never heard of that. Now if its some fancy electrical contraption that eliminates one of the sensors I would take it off inspect it for damage if it looks ok lay it on the bench and hit it with a 36 oz. Hammer. Inspect again if its broke throw it in the trash and put the correct sensor back in :) little morning first cup humor bud!!!!!
 
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