The King is dead - Long live the king?. (Geeky ATGATT stuff)

[ThisGuy]

I'm tempted to try out some of those Duluth products. Nothing worse than sweaty ****** on a hot summers ride.

I've worn both those items every day for the last several months (the underwear for a couple years). Both are good for what they are. I like the DuluthFlex jeans… a little extra stretch is nice, and there's really no difference in appearance or feel of the fabric. They're just jeans.


Is it a fair summary to say this thread is more oriented to convenient daily wear gear, as opposed to pure safety gear optimized for riding regardless of its inconvenience going to work or running errands?

If that's the case, I'll admit I never geared up very well for running errands or going out to meet friends, even when the R3 was my only vehicle. The closest I came for convenience was a leather jacket and kevlar long johns. But non- (or minimally) armored gear like those pants (or what I think of when I hear “kevlar lined hoodie”) always feel like a huge compromise in safety to me. Better than nothing for sure, but it would never meet my definition of ATGATT.

As for full on safety gear, I have a one-piece kevlar mesh suit from motoport. Full rain liner goes underneath as needed. Not sure if I've written about it elsewhere, but I absolutely love it. Depending on how it's configured it's perfectly comfortable from at least 40-100°F. More comfortable than riding without gear in heat, because the mesh offers shade with hardly any airflow restriction. You can feel a breeze just swinging your arm through the air standing still. Absolutely love it… when I'm only riding.

For daily convenience running errands… not so great. I regret the one piece suit. It would be much more flexible to go in a store or diner and be able to just remove the jacket and keep the pants on. The full body suit comes off quickly, but it's just enormous to try and set aside.


Materials like UHMWPE are indeed very cool, with lots of possibilities. But honestly for me, I'm not sure how much of a difference that stuff will really make… because armor. UV advantages and such aside, kevlar is as flexible and lightweight as I need it to be, and no matter how fancy the fabrics get, I'll never feel comfortable without fairly serious armor below it, and that just adds a certain bulk.

So back to the beginning… I think those kinds of fabric improvements are going to make the biggest difference for people who basically want street clothes they can ride in without layering additional safety gear. I can see that niche improving dramatically. I might even buy some of it. But again for me, that wouldn't be ATGATT.

 

[1olbull]

I was intrigued by your post, so I surfed over to Duluth to buy a pair of those Ballroom Jeans.
They were $50, but OK, I reckoned to take the hit and give them a try.
I muddled through the whole sign your life away process right up to the end. I was then informed shipping for one pair of jeans would cost me an additional $15!!!
The "X" at top right of my screen marked the spot. I cancelled. Guess I'll stay with my fine two layer legs, Dickies.

 

[1olbull]

I was intrigued by your post, so I surfed over to Duluth to buy a pair of those Ballroom Jeans.
They were $50, but OK, I reckoned to take the hit and give them a try.
I muddled through the whole sign your life away process right up to the end. I was then informed shipping for one pair of jeans would cost me an additional $15!!!
The "X" at top right of my screen marked the spot. I cancelled. Guess I'll stay with my fine two layer legs, ****ies.

Webmassa -
This here is friggin' ridiculous!!!
You have censored the product name used in my post!!

 

[scot in exile]

Leather Versus Textiles:
The Pros and Cons
Let’s examine a few areas where we can discern true practical differences between leather and textile garments.

• Abrasion resistance. This is the big one for leather lovers, and it is, on a theoretical basis, a slam dunk for cowhide. Simply put, leather is better at going down the road; in a crash, it will abrade slowly and predictably without gaining a lot of heat. (That’s not to say it doesn’t get hot, but it is not inherently flammable.) Textiles are at a theoretical disadvantage. At some point—and that point depends on myriad variables, including material strength, garment construction, rider size and weight, the abrasiveness of the, er, crash surface and, most importantly, the speed of the get-off—the leather will protect you better in a sliding crash. That’s theory, but how about reality? At street speeds, a textile garment is likely to do just as good a job as leather. Why? Because low-speed crashes usually don’t involve a lot of sliding, so the textile garment is less likely to drag along the ground long enough to heat up and melt. (No, the textile will not catch fire, but the nylon threads will melt under extreme conditions.)
  

 

[TXtriple]

You need to adjust your clothing to accommodate the balls. They can be annoying, the sheep skin solves the issue.

COME ON GUYS! I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M THE FIRST ONE TO TAKE THIS AND RUN WITH IT.

 

[CrzystghndKC]

I'm tempted to try out some of thoDuluth products. Nothing worse than sweaty ****** on a hot summers ride.

I have had several pair of Duluth Ballroom jeans and I can't recommend them. They have a design flaw that causes the ******/fly area to wear out long before the rest of the pants. Every one developed a hole in the exact same spot. The added cost of the Duluth name really made these a bad investment. You will find Members Mark jeans at Sams Club fit just as well and last twice as long at 1/3 price a much better deal.

 

[barbagris]

Leather Versus Textiles:
The Pros and Cons
Let’s examine a few areas where we can discern true practical differences between leather and textile garments.

• Abrasion resistance. This is the big one for leather lovers, and it is, on a theoretical basis, a slam dunk for cowhide. Simply put, leather is better at going down the road; in a crash, it will abrade slowly and predictably without gaining a lot of heat. (That’s not to say it doesn’t get hot, but it is not inherently flammable.) Textiles are at a theoretical disadvantage. At some point—and that point depends on myriad variables, including material strength, garment construction, rider size and weight, the abrasiveness of the, er, crash surface and, most importantly, the speed of the get-off—the leather will protect you better in a sliding crash. That’s theory, but how about reality? At street speeds, a textile garment is likely to do just as good a job as leather. Why? Because low-speed crashes usually don’t involve a lot of sliding, so the textile garment is less likely to drag along the ground long enough to heat up and melt. (No, the textile will not catch fire, but the nylon threads will melt under extreme conditions.)

Well let's see - That is NOT applicable to ALL fabrics. Dyneema and Kevlar will take more abrading than leather. They are NOT nylon. Leather CAN offer a very important advantage (IF TAILORED TO IT'S OWNER) - It acts as a compression/splinting layer. Something I don't think any fabric garment will do.

The key is that we all see a magic word like KEVLAR and assume, usually incorrectly some magical solution. The reality is that it will take intelligent use of ALL these materials to get it right.

 

[barbagris]

The reality is that it will take intelligent use of ALL these materials to get it right.

So I thought I'd expand my thoughts. Note this is based on personal experience of falls, research and longish chats with materials knowledgeable folk.

Pretty much everybody agrees - The "bump" protection has to be held firmly close to the area it protects. And should NOT be able to move about. So either the item of clothing has to be stiffish, tailored and close fitting (such as bespoke racing leathers) or you need something like an Armour shirt - Some of which are seriously inspiring. There are a few marques - personally at the moment - I would put KNOX at the head of the crowd - simply because they are really thinking about it. 3-June-2018.

Then you need an abrasion protection. This is where the Para-Aramids and UHMWPE and even LEATHER come in.

Leather has a HUGE advantage aesthetically in that it is easily dyed. It is also (if used properly) quite stiff. This helps when something heavy (like a guzzi) lands on you and drags you down the road - it wont allow you to burst - first hand experience folks. This matters. Also this stiffness means it does not FLAP. Every time I put my Vanson suit on I am aware of reduced wind noise. Leather SHOULD be worn close fitting too. This has always been the advice. It will mould to it's user.

The Aramid family is heat/fire resistant so makes sense for example where potentially SUPER volatile race fuels are used. But cannot be used as an an external layer unless considered as disposable. And it does get damp and heavy when wet. It also as a liner is a very good thermal insulator (keeps you warm) - first hand - I know this. It is NOT particularly good as a flexible layer as it's properties as a material are quite the reverse of flexible. But used as semi flexible abrasion clamped between two layers of race grade leather - excellent. As a liner inside (for example hoodies) - I would not expect it to do much unless a GOOD SEPARATE armour layer is worn. Most fit so loosely that the armour inside is basically anecdotal. I wear mine over an Halvarssons Armour Jacket to stop that getting dirty. Also ime - Split upper/lower garments DO NOT offer full protection. I pce for track and zip together for road. That or serious overlapping (bib and braces with Jacket). In a slide if a garment abrades - it is catching on something - it will move rather than wear usually. Full 270° plus zips.

The UHMWPE I am looking forward to testing - as it is supposedly a thermal conductor (keeps you cooler) - It does seem to (shop tests) - but I need full sunshine tests to know. In theory (and practise) they can be external layer fabrics - but this means mixed warps and wefts - and so far this is ONLY available in DENIM which I dislike aesthetically. There is no reason why this layer cannot be bonded to a layer such as Goretex be it leather, UHMWPE or para-aramid. But that makes the layer less vented. My feeling is that UHMWPE and leather are going to be very very good indeed.

The Ethelene family of materials do have some inherent stretch, do not absorb water, will actually float (not that this is relevant to us) Are twice as resistant as aramids to abrasion, do not degrade in sunlight do not insulate (this also means they are NOT fire resistant). None of this is particularly new - but it's application to M/C's is newish.

Stitching matters - Now that we know Aramids degrade - UHMWPE - triple stitched.

Personally I would rather have a "disposible" waterproof outer layer rather than sacrifice venting in the abrading layer. Gets HOT here. Waterproof layers INSIDE are just (imo) silly. This allows the outer fabric to get wet/heavy and then chill as it wind dries.

This is perfect world.

But real world we want pockets (I get seriously miffed at the lack of decent pockets on bike gear - esp trousers) , venting (hot climates) - thermal liners (cold climates) - waterproofing. And mfrs need to offer off-the-shelf solutions to sell anything.

Layering is the key. The new family of materials just makes that layer-tailoring more variable. But simply believing that material "X" is the answer to everything is a serious mistake.

It is a brave new world - Long live the King - and his successors.

 

[ThisGuy]

So I thought I'd expand my thoughts. Note this is based on personal experience of falls, research and longish chats with materials knowledgeable folk.

Pretty much everybody agrees - The "bump" protection has to be held firmly close to the area it protects. And should NOT be able to move about. So either the item of clothing has to be stiffish, tailored and close fitting (such as bespoke racing leathers) or you need something like an Armour shirt - Some of which are seriously inspiring. There are a few marques - personally at the moment - I would put KNOX at the head of the crowd - simply because they are really thinking about it. 3-June-2018.

Then you need an abrasion protection. This is where the Para-Aramids and UHMWPE and even LEATHER come in.

Leather has a HUGE advantage aesthetically in that it is easily dyed. It is also (if used properly) quite stiff. This helps when something heavy (like a guzzi) lands on you and drags you down the road - it wont allow you to burst - first hand experience folks. This matters. Also this stiffness means it does not FLAP. Every time I put my Vanson suit on I am aware of reduced wind noise. Leather SHOULD be worn close fitting too. This has always been the advice. It will mould to it's user.

The Aramid family is heat/fire resistant so makes sense for example where potentially SUPER volatile race fuels are used. But cannot be used as an an external layer unless considered as disposable. And it does get damp and heavy when wet. It also as a liner is a very good thermal insulator (keeps you warm) - first hand - I know this. It is NOT particularly good as a flexible layer as it's properties as a material are quite the reverse of flexible. But used as semi flexible abrasion clamped between two layers of race grade leather - excellent. As a liner inside (for example hoodies) - I would not expect it to do much unless a GOOD SEPARATE armour layer is worn. Most fit so loosely that the armour inside is basically anecdotal. I wear mine over an Halvarssons Armour Jacket to stop that getting dirty. Also ime - Split upper/lower garments DO NOT offer full protection. I pce for track and zip together for road. That or serious overlapping (bib and braces with Jacket). In a slide if a garment abrades - it is catching on something - it will move rather than wear usually. Full 270° plus zips.

The UHMWPE I am looking forward to testing - as it is supposedly a thermal conductor (keeps you cooler) - It does seem to (shop tests) - but I need full sunshine tests to know. In theory (and practise) they can be external layer fabrics - but this means mixed warps and wefts - and so far this is ONLY available in DENIM which I dislike aesthetically. There is no reason why this layer cannot be bonded to a layer such as Goretex be it leather, UHMWPE or para-aramid. But that makes the layer less vented. My feeling is that UHMWPE and leather are going to be very very good indeed.

The Ethelene family of materials do have some inherent stretch, do not absorb water, will actually float (not that this is relevant to us) Are twice as resistant as aramids to abrasion, do not degrade in sunlight do not insulate (this also means they are NOT fire resistant). None of this is particularly new - but it's application to M/C's is newish.

Stitching matters - Now that we know Aramids degrade - UHMWPE - triple stitched.

Personally I would rather have a "disposible" waterproof outer layer rather than sacrifice venting in the abrading layer. Gets HOT here. Waterproof layers INSIDE are just (imo) silly. This allows the outer fabric to get wet/heavy and then chill as it wind dries.

This is perfect world.

But real world we want pockets (I get seriously miffed at the lack of decent pockets on bike gear - esp trousers) , venting (hot climates) - thermal liners (cold climates) - waterproofing. And mfrs need to offer off-the-shelf solutions to sell anything.

Layering is the key. The new family of materials just makes that layer-tailoring more variable. But simply believing that material "X" is the answer to everything is a serious mistake.

It is a brave new world - Long live the King - and his successors.

Thanks for writing this up. There's a lot of good stuff to think about.

One thing… I think it's difficult to generalize this discussion because there are so many different examples of how the same basic materials are used. Exactly as you said about the intelligent use of the materials. When you make statements under the heading of “aramid family”, it seems you have specific types of garments in mind that the statements are based on, and it might be helpful to specify those examples to make a clear comparison of what you're talking about.

The motoport kevlar mesh I wear doesn't fit a couple of your statements, because of their intelligent use of the materials. The kevlar is (basically, effectively) the exterior layer, but made in such a way it doesn't (meaningfully in the lifespan of riding gear) degrade in the sun. So it's an exterior layer I don't consider disposable. But then I guess, what is your definition of disposable? Relative to riders who keep the same leather for decades, I suppose it is.

Also because it really is more of a substantial mesh rather than what you'd usually call a fabric, It's very different than what you describe in having the waterproof layer underneath. The outer layer doesn't soak up water and become heavy and chill as it dries. As far as water is concerned, it's basically as if the mesh layer isn't even there. It's just providing abrasion protection with full airflow through the mesh, so it's the next layer that really interacts with the weather. This isn't 100% true as there's a very lightweight liner that holds the armor in place and makes it easier to slide in/out of the suit. But it's so light I don't think it makes much difference with rain, in large part because it dries out so quickly with the airflow through the mesh.

I realize the motoport mesh is unlike most other kevlar-based products (which is why I bought it), so your generalizations hold up for the vast majority of products. It goes back to your original point about intelligent use of materials. Generalizations are a good starting point, but it's worth pointing out the exceptions to see how you can get a better result from intelligent use of the same materials.

Thanks again for the detailed post!

 

[rocketjohn]

Webmassa -
This here is friggin' ridiculous!!!
You have censored the product name used in my post!!

Maybe we should call them Richardies!