Engine Vibration continues

[warp9.9]

u could before installing the new lifter u could start it w/o a lifter and take it up to 3 grand and see if the vibration is still there.

first I agree with the importance of ensuring your throttle bodies are balance and no vacuum leaks in the system. So as not to add to or create vibrations.
ok I modified you quote to leave your statement about assembling the bike without the lifter piece to see if the vibration is still present. My first thoughts is is a lot of extra work but could yield some results. The one thing I would worry about is you would also be removing oil flow restriction so oil would dump straight out the input shaft. Question would this lower the oil pressure elsewhere much like when assembling the transmission the manual points out if you "align the oil holes in the shaft with the oil holes in the splined bushing you will reduce oil pressure to other vital components"
now with changes made to lifter piece over the years along with seeing newer engines with old style stuff in it its hard to come up with a valid answer across the board.

say for instance in 2011 Triumph changed the head on the newer redesigned style lifter piece. (2006 black engine and up)
to be larger and thicker which I very much agree with. Of course as far as I could tell the changes first crept into the 2011 Touring model while the roadster had no change.
so to help with this here is pictures of lifter pieces changes as I believe happened.
first 04 to 06 and any Rocket with a Silver engine.

and matching pressure plate, needle bearing and thrust washer. (thrust washer machined on the lifter piece and thrust washer go on each side of the needle bearing for running surface. In the picture below the thrust washer is sitting under the needle roller bearing)

then came the change in lifter piece, pressure plate, and bearing design. changing from a needle roller bearing and thrust washer to a pressure plate that holds a ball roller bearing, and pressure plate to match the bearing.

installed in new pressure plate.

And like i stated in 2011 The lifter piece was changed again in which Triumph enlarged the head In both thickness and out side diameter of the head. and the thickness of the back shoulder shown compared to the previous style below. Note the thicker shoulder was the latest that I know of and have not got a look at say a 2014 and up to see if it changed again.

below shows the difference in head fitment in the lifter shaft
first the smaller head. end view

now the larger head.

IMHO the larger head ride more concentric in the lifter shaft. now there has always been end play and clearance in the input shaft of the transmission IMO this is so oil can also flow by it and lube the bearing and lifting mechanism. This end thrust will allow movement for and aft. INMO to much. and allows the lifter piece to back out of the bearing allowing for more runout rattling and probably some vibration. So near as I can figure Triumph caught on when the roadster came out. Or at least this is when I noticed the extra part added to this mechanism. The call it a shim when it is just a washer. the problem with this is the clearance to the outside diameter of the lifter piece diameter that it goes on plus the extra undercut groove at the shoulder on the lifter piece adds to even more clearance. Do you suspect the washer could run out even more and add to the rattle. part pictured below.

and now look at the sloppy thing on the lifter shaft diameter and remember the extra slop where the oil groove is

In fact if you look closely you will see it runs out of concentric so much it wore the black off the hardened surface in the bottom of the groove.

I would have to say this shim shims nothing it is just there to rattle around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now time for a cup of mud

 

[cootertwo]

Nice write up Warp, you da man!

 

[canecorso]

Yes warp9.9 and Paul helped me through when I was doing my bike even my dealer argued with me saying I need to go with the old one for 05, that the newer one will not fit.
And said they will order it but will not guarantee it will fit that if it doesn't I'll still need to pay for parts or pay a 15% stocking fee.
And it fit everything worked out, I thing it seems to grab a lot better when taking out fast.
It worked out more expensive because I had to change more so everything fit, but well worth the money.

 

[warp9.9]

The old style clutch properly set up will work just fine. One of the advantages I see of changing the lifter piece design is from a production stand point alone. I see a massive savings in material needed do to the large thrust washer machined into the old style. that alone will not only compute to material savings, But machine time will be less and I suspect heat treatment control would be much easier. Most of the older styles to me look like they underwent a cyanide bath or some type of ammonia nitriting process. Just judging by heat treated surface appearance.

One thing I do when installing a clutch is to clean the inner race of the pressure plate bearing along with the appropriate diameter on the lifter piece and Loctite it into the bearing. I am not sure if it helps as I have not had to take it back apart yet. I use it sparingly so as not to get it everywhere. Thought being it might help eliminate the end thrust/slop and keep it seated in the bearing. Again this is just something I am trying.

 

[IMFASTTOO]

first I agree with the importance of ensuring your throttle bodies are balance and no vacuum leaks in the system. So as not to add to or create vibrations.
ok I modified you quote to leave your statement about assembling the bike without the lifter piece to see if the vibration is still present. My first thoughts is is a lot of extra work but could yield some results. The one thing I would worry about is you would also be removing oil flow restriction so oil would dump straight out the input shaft. Question would this lower the oil pressure elsewhere much like when assembling the transmission the manual points out if you "align the oil holes in the shaft with the oil holes in the splined bushing you will reduce oil pressure to other vital components"
now with changes made to lifter piece over the years along with seeing newer engines with old style stuff in it its hard to come up with a valid answer across the board.

say for instance in 2011 Triumph changed the head on the newer redesigned style lifter piece. (2006 black engine and up)
to be larger and thicker which I very much agree with. Of course as far as I could tell the changes first crept into the 2011 Touring model while the roadster had no change.
so to help with this here is pictures of lifter pieces changes as I believe happened.
first 04 to 06 and any Rocket with a Silver engine.

and matching pressure plate, needle bearing and thrust washer. (thrust washer machined on the lifter piece and thrust washer go on each side of the needle bearing for running surface. In the picture below the thrust washer is sitting under the needle roller bearing)

then came the change in lifter piece, pressure plate, and bearing design. changing from a needle roller bearing and thrust washer to a pressure plate that holds a ball roller bearing, and pressure plate to match the bearing.

installed in new pressure plate.

And like i stated in 2011 The lifter piece was changed again in which Triumph enlarged the head In both thickness and out side diameter of the head. and the thickness of the back shoulder shown compared to the previous style below. Note the thicker shoulder was the latest that I know of and have not got a look at say a 2014 and up to see if it changed again.

below shows the difference in head fitment in the lifter shaft
first the smaller head. end view

now the larger head.

IMHO the larger head ride more concentric in the lifter shaft. now there has always been end play and clearance in the input shaft of the transmission IMO this is so oil can also flow by it and lube the bearing and lifting mechanism. This end thrust will allow movement for and aft. INMO to much. and allows the lifter piece to back out of the bearing allowing for more runout rattling and probably some vibration. So near as I can figure Triumph caught on when the roadster came out. Or at least this is when I noticed the extra part added to this mechanism. The call it a shim when it is just a washer. the problem with this is the clearance to the outside diameter of the lifter piece diameter that it goes on plus the extra undercut groove at the shoulder on the lifter piece adds to even more clearance. Do you suspect the washer could run out even more and add to the rattle. part pictured below.

and now look at the sloppy thing on the lifter shaft diameter and remember the extra slop where the oil groove is

In fact if you look closely you will see it runs out of concentric so much it wore the black off the hardened surface in the bottom of the groove.

I would have to say this shim shims nothing it is just there to rattle around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now time for a cup of mud

YES SCOTT the sloppy fitting washer is flopping around and probably causing vibration replacing that with a tighter fitting shim could help

 

[warp9.9]

YES SCOTT the sloppy fitting washer is flopping around and probably causing vibration replacing that with a tighter fitting shim could help

IMO a thicker shim would add weight to rattle more. plus you have to have thrust play or as soon as you fibers wore some the lifter piece and shim would be on the end of the input shaft and your clutch is slipping. I found the washer/shim useful though. I just used it as a washer on my milling machine. and can not detect a rattle from it on my lifter piece.

 

[IMFASTTOO]

Size I will be interested to have you ride my Roadster sometime for you to compare the vibration in mine to yours. I just did a 2000km ride, the bike now done 9000km, the ride gave me plenty of time check the vibration, it comes in at 2100rpm, disappears at 2500rpm and come back at 2700rpm and stays in to 3500 rpm, on and of the throttle, and just like you say it completely disappears with the slightest pressure on the clutch lever.
It not an unbearable condition but would great if it was not there, the bike would be perfect.
I did speak to Triumph, they told me there were aware of the condition but not considered to be detrimental. I will have the bike shop have ride when the 10000km service is done and give their opinion.
By the way are you still riding your Rocket while waiting for your new one?

ITS not a bad vibration but the fact that it disappears with a light pull of the clutch to remove the free play So lets see if we cant eliminate the vibes

 

[IMFASTTOO]

IMO a thicker shim would add weight to rattle more. plus you have to have thrust play or as soon as you fibers wore some the lifter piece and shim would be on the end of the input shaft and your clutch is slipping. I found the washer/shim useful though. I just used it as a washer on my milling machine. and can not detect a rattle from it on my lifter piece.

I wasnt saying a thicker shim but one thats tighter on the shaft

 

[warp9.9]

I wasnt saying a thicker shim but one thats tighter on the shaft

Like I stated above even if the Inside diameter of the shim was smaller say almost a press fit on the outside diameter of the lifter piece there is still the groove which will allow it to flop around on the lifter shaft anyway. A better design would be to run the oil grooves on the lifter shaft diameter lengthwise along the outside diameter allowing oil flow, verses around the OD then there would not be a groove for it to drop in. Oh and while your redesigning it why not just add the material to the lifter piece therefore eliminating the need for the shim in the first place.

 

[IMFASTTOO]

Like I stated above even if the Inside diameter of the shim was smaller say almost a press fit on the outside diameter of the lifter piece there is still the groove which will allow it to flop around on the lifter shaft anyway. A better design would be to run the oil grooves on the lifter shaft diameter lengthwise along the outside diameter allowing oil flow, verses around the OD then there would not be a groove for it to drop in. Oh and while your redesigning it why not just add the material to the lifter piece therefore eliminating the need for the shim in the first place.

ILL call you SCOTT