AFR "Safe Zone?"

Hi Vinkster,

I don't know if the Triumph ECU codes are interchangeable with a standard and a Roadster. Some of the other forum members have more expertise in that then I do. I'm sure they will respond with info on that.
I'm no expert, but I have read that the Classic maps will NOT work on a Roadster. I don't remember who had the issue, but it didn't work. The motors are the same but the ECUs are different.
 
I'm no expert, but I have read that the Classic maps will NOT work on a Roadster. I don't remember who had the issue, but it didn't work. The motors are the same but the ECUs are different.

I understand that. The AFR+ is the same. I need those values. It would give me a good baseline and reduce the amount of time testing. The suggested values are a range. For example the green stage is suggested to be 13.5, but the yellow is 13-14. These are numbers that are universal best starting points. I'm looking for a rocket specific best starting point. And if someone had their bike tuned by the person that made the product, I'd like those numbers most.
 
[quoactually kster, post: 233524, member: 2345"]I understand that. The AFR+ is the same. I need those values. It would give me a good baseline and reduce the amount of time testing. The suggested values are a range. For example the green stage is suggested to be 13.5, but the yellow is 13-14. These are numbers that are universal best starting points. I'm looking for a rocket specific best starting point. And if someone had their bike tuned by the person that made the product, I'd like those numbers most.[/quote]
you actualy find that if you look at the Roadster and the Std/Classic maps AFR tables that triumph changed their traget AFR's
 
"By all means go about and home tune your bikes using all manner of devices, but you really need to think a lot about what your doing." Neville Lush

Best advice ever on tuning. There are so many variables in tuning that it is overwhelming to most weekend warriors (and many "tuners".) To mention just a few: combustion chamber design (wedge, pent roof, semi-hemi, hemi, and others, each of which can have different tumble and swirl characteristics plus swept volume and swept surface areas; exhaust system design, which includes efficiency and back pressure; cam profile, duration and timing (even engines without active Exhaust Gas Recirculation systems have EGR (some more than others intake system type and size, fuel which varies from location to location, season to season, brand to brand, and in ethanol content; ignition system and controllers, which may or may not have detonation sensing ability and active compensation; operating conditions such as altitude, air temperature, and humidity; and operating mode as in half throttle to climb the Rockies at 80mph heading into a wind and pulling a trailer (sustained constant load and rpm) or half throttle while accelerating through the gears to reach 80mph (transient load and rpm.) And to make matters worse, sensors, injectors (or carburetor and components) and engines vary in manufacture and again over time with useage. Additionally, sensors have response times that affect their ability to capture "real time" data.

Therefore, any AFR chart is a very broad guideline. For example, one engine might run with more hydrocarbons (unburned fuel) in the exhaust but what does combust burns very clean (carbon monoxide low), versus another that has fewer hydrocarbon emissions (HC low), but burns less efficiently (more CO emisssions). The O2 sensor will read differently in each case but they may need similar gross AFR's.

Piggyback systems can "fill in holes" and "clip high spots" and do work reasonably well but often involve large compromises (as in forcing an AFR range when unwarranted by operating conditions) and intentionally do so when they have a knob which allows you to choose one compromise over another. Testing and changing tuning parameters (fuel or ignition tables or jets and ignition curves) with an inertia dyno, such as a Dyno-Jet, is useful if done well by an operator with experience not only with tuning but with the limitations of the dyno, and with seat time on the motorcycle type being tuned and then with road testing and re-adjustment after the dyno testing. In other words, I wouldn't take my wife's moped to a Harley tuner much less my Rocket, unless I knew he or she had a good reputation and had tuned more than several R3's beforehand.

Eddy current dynos with data acquistion systems such as exhaust gas analyzers, exhaust temperature sensors, mass air flow meters, etc. involve a serious investment of capital and therefore are usually found in facilities where tuners also have extended experience and can effectively use the equipment. However, even these tuning shops are limited in the time they spend on developing ECU programs (tuning your bike,) as most of us won't pay the bill to do otherwise. They can and do develop extensive knowledge of particular motorcycles overtime as they tune more and more of them.

Unless gasoline runs through your veins and your butt accelerometer, hearing and smell are well developed, ontop of being adventurous, take your bike to a reputable tuner and then heed his advice.
 
I'd rather just play with the tools I have and become an expert with my tools and my bike. Why pay someone to take all the fun and knowledge away from me. Thank you for the information. I am storing everything people are saying in my toolbox in my head.

Its not that I don't care about what everyone is saying about dynos and professional technicians, I just don't want to go that route. Plus, I like to experiment. If I can push a button and make my bike 'feel' different, then eventually my bike will 'feel' best for my purpose. I will never take my bike to the salt flats or compete in bracket racing. I am not one that spends money to get a piece of paper that says I'm cooler than the next guy. I ride alone most of the time and use my bike as daily transportation. Let me enjoy it. Tips, tricks and best practices are appreciated.
 
Great, you are adventurous and may have gas in your veins!

Tips: make one change at a time, make changes big enough that they get your attention and adjust from there (bracket too rich, too lean, and then work to the middle), ride long enough with a change to understand its affects, pay very close attention to how the bike feels and responds, its safer to be a little rich than too lean. However, it is unlikely that you will burn the valves in a liquid cooled motor using 20% or less throttle so going too lean when cruising means a loss of power, surging, poor response to small throttle inputs, and reduced fuel mileage (but the engine will run cleaner to a point, hence OEM tuning that runs like sh-t.)

What can and often does happen when a little too lean is the engine will begin to ping (detonate.) As pinging increases, exhaust temperatures skyrocket. Early stages of detonation can't be heard with the human ear, so when you can hear it, it has already been occurring. Time to decide if you want to change timing or richen the mixture or perhaps both. Spark plugs can tell you a great deal about cylinder temperatures, detonation and combustion efficiency, but you have to know what to look for in general and then know what they look like in your engine which means the gas tank is up so often that you can remove the bolt and prop it up blind folded without scratching the tank.

Exhaust manifolds start to turn dull red at about 1,000 deg/F and is visible at night and progresses to orange by 1,300. In bright daylight you can't see dull red and may not be able to discern the early stages of orange that are readily visible at night (but an infared thermometer will.) Neither will damage your valves. Now if you see an orange glow in daylight or bright orange turning to yellow at night, well you might as well drive right to the garage as a valve inspection is in order. A side note here: a rich mixture, a relatively open or free flowing exhaust system, and late ignition timing makes for the nicest of blow torches. The exhaust system "lights" up from all the unburnt fuel combusting in the exhaust pipes, while the combustion chamber and cylinder head temperatures remain below normal. Quite a sight if one hasn't seen it before.

Too much fuel makes the throttle feel on/off or difficult to modulate; response to throttle input is immediate but sluggish. The engine may feel good if a little rich, but it won't be crisp. At larger throttle openings and faster acceleration rates, being rich is less noticeable but power is lost nonetheless. A disadvantage of having a fast bike to tune is that you have little time to sort out what you feel, as the speed changes so rapidly in lower gears and in higher gears your road speed becomes high enough that you become preoccupied with driving and have less ability to concentrate on what the engine is doing. Hence, sufficient riding time is needed to evaluate changes.

If you limit your tuning to low speed and cruising, you will discover that your senses are the best tools to use short of an eddy current dyno. Spark plug readings won't help much at very low speeds, but they are useful at cruising speeds (but you can't drive around town or stop and start the engine before checking them so carry tools with you, along with a pair of gloves.) Also, an old fashioned vacuum gauge used to determine engine load is helpful (or a computer strapped to the tank). Be aware that the R3 ECU has narrow limits within which to adjust the AFR. Although Tune ECU, for example, allows you to change the AFR table, the ECU won't compensate to those inputs if they are outside of its operating range. The stock O2 sensor is a narrow band design so that limits the range of adaptation (approx 14.05 to 14.70). You will discover that if you reset the adaptives and then ride the ECU will gradually adapt back to the range in which it can operate despite whatever numbers you have entered using TuneECU. The only way I could get my R3 to stay running correctly at low speed and cruising was to override the O2 sensor so that it wouldn't adapt at all.

Piggyback systems that use wide band O2 sensors can be set to richer or leaner AFR's than the stock system allows. Remember that no aftermarket company wants you to burn up your motor and then call them and complain about their "poor" product. So, their green, yellow and red indicators may be relative and useful but not necessarily definitive when applied to your application. Furthermore, they are limited in efficacy if they cannot change ignition timing. Spark timing and fueling are set by the OEM to reduce emissions and increase exhaust heat at idle and low speeds so that the catalytic converter lights off quickly and functions effectively in order to further reduce emissions to meet gov't requirements. Changing fueling only limits what can be accopmlished.

Enjoy the process and the potential outcome, but know there may be a little heartache along the way.
 
Geez - I wish YOU lived on my street, instead of my dumbass neighbors!