The real problem with the starter relay - starter mod issue

I had the dreaded starter relay problem..

"Click.. " (un-click).... nothing...

I read through all the posts and found the starter mod video whereby one adds a second relay to engage the starter relay.. OK.. did that. Didn't fix it.

Here's why:

The problem is the clutch safety switch. When you pull in the clutch, the switch closes and completes the ground circuit for TWO things.. first it completes the ground circuit for the starter relay and second it completes the ground circuit for the ECU so it can power the injectors (if the ECU doesn't see a complete ground, it won't open the injectors).

The starter relay has a positive/negative that closes the relay so power can flow to the starter. The starter switch on your handlebar closes and sends power to the relay. The clutch switch, when clutch is pulled, closes and grounds the relay. My clutch switch, closed, was showing 30 ohms... it should show ZERO ohms. That resistance through that switch keeps the starter relay from staying engaged (hence click-un-click)..in my case, the ohms were high enough that when I did the starter mod (adding a second relay), the clutch switch would not ground the ECU.

Here's the fix:

Go to the starter relay.. find the ground wire to the relay, splice into it and run the splice to the frame. There's a nice bolt right above the relay to use.

Done. The only downside is you've now bypassed the safety switch on the clutch so the bike will start without the clutch being engaged. The gear and side-stand switches still work.

There you go... enjoy!

John

Oh, because I didn't un-hook my clutch switch and it is not a complete circuit, it knocks the ECU out if I pull the clutch to start (new habit, don't pull the clutch) so it turns over, but won't start.... probably just my case, but thought I'd mention it.

Bypassing safety systems is rarely a good move.

Yep kind of glad my old 2007 model runs just fine !!!!

JSHRAM said:

I had the dreaded starter relay problem..

"Click.. " (un-click).... nothing...

I read through all the posts and found the starter mod video whereby one adds a second relay to engage the starter relay.. OK.. did that. Didn't fix it.

Here's why:

The problem is the clutch safety switch. When you pull in the clutch, the switch closes and completes the ground circuit for TWO things.. first it completes the ground circuit for the starter relay and second it completes the ground circuit for the ECU so it can power the injectors (if the ECU doesn't see a complete ground, it won't open the injectors).

The starter relay has a positive/negative that closes the relay so power can flow to the starter. The starter switch on your handlebar closes and sends power to the relay. The clutch switch, when clutch is pulled, closes and grounds the relay. My clutch switch, closed, was showing 30 ohms... it should show ZERO ohms. That resistance through that switch keeps the starter relay from staying engaged (hence click-un-click)..in my case, the ohms were high enough that when I did the starter mod (adding a second relay), the clutch switch would not ground the ECU.

Here's the fix:

Go to the starter relay.. find the ground wire to the relay, splice into it and run the splice to the frame. There's a nice bolt right above the relay to use.

Done. The only downside is you've now bypassed the safety switch on the clutch so the bike will start without the clutch being engaged. The gear and side-stand switches still work.

There you go... enjoy!

John

Oh, because I didn't un-hook my clutch switch and it is not a complete circuit, it knocks the ECU out if I pull the clutch to start (new habit, don't pull the clutch) so it turns over, but won't start.... probably just my case, but thought I'd mention it.

Click to expand...

Not as smart as you but did trouble shoot the problem. No longer a problem.

idk said:

Bypassing safety systems is rarely a good move.

Click to expand...

Says the man who put a car tire on his R3.

Now that I have a few more minutes at my PC directly .............
This is going to read as harsh criticism - not personal at all but explains my "bangs head off wall" emoji

JSHRAM said:

...When you pull in the clutch, the switch closes and completes the ground circuit for TWO things.. first it completes the ground circuit for the starter relay ...

... The clutch switch, when clutch is pulled, closes and grounds the relay. My clutch switch, closed, was showing 30 ohms... it should show ZERO ohms. .

Click to expand...

The clutch switch is only one of several interlocks that the ECU processes to enable the starter - and important to note that the clutch is not DIRECTLY connected to the starter/headlight-cut relay but via a logic gate in the ECU; another factor that is that same logic enable is the system voltage. (that latter one can be exacerbated by the 'high power starter' retrofit and by some Lithium batteries - even though the Lithiums have higher static voltage and can supply HUGE cranking currents, it is the initial sag at the instant the starter hits, that causes the problem - even with std starter and lead-acid battery, that initial voltage when starter hits is less than 8.5V (you will NEVER see this on a DVM)
Without further testing data I cannot say which is at play in your case - but you cannot conclusively determine the problem is the clutch switch
(but begs to ask - if you believe the clutch switch IS the issue, why not just fix it - or bridge it???)

second it completes the ground circuit for the ECU so it can power the injectors (if the ECU doesn't see a complete ground, it won't open the injectors).

Click to expand...

The thing about the injectors - sorry to say that is just nonsense - since the clutch switch is not normally made when running, why would pulling the clutch possibly be associated with the injectors enable? The clutch switch has nothing to do with the injectors, that switch is normally 'open' with bike running and lever released.
The injectors would be interlocked by the fall detect switch or the side-stand down IF also in gear - but clutch itself has nothing to do with injectors enable.
(I'm actually genuinely curious how you determined that it was???)
On some other marques, the clutch switch enables a starting map (enriched fuel and favourable timing) but this is not employed by Triumph, certainly not on the Rockets

JSHRAM said:

Here's the fix:

Go to the starter relay.. find the ground wire to the relay, splice into it and run the splice to the frame.

Click to expand...

Several problems within this statement:
The frame is NOT a valid ground - NONE of the electrical system grounds to the frame - the frame is NOT an active circuit path in the electrical scheme. At best it makes spurious contact to the engine (via mounting bolts into a powder coated frame) - the engine IS truly grounded, but the frame is not.
But more importantly not only are you are 'grounding' the relay by this method, you are also shorting the ECU output to ground, by splicing into the original wire
It would not be a surprise if your ECU was permanently damaged from this.

Sorry, but this is hack to fix something that is fundamentally wrong on your specific bike
Does it seem to work? Well sure - but just wrong electrically on a number of counts.

If the clutch switch is bad, then replace the switch! Or if you REALLY must, why connect the relay enable (and the ECU itself!) to ground, why not just bypass the clutch switch???
Or if you MUST permanently ground the relay then please DON'T splice into the wire, but disconnect it and connect ONLY the relay to ground.

But better - just fix the original source of the problem vs 'fixing' something that thousands of other bikes work & have no problem with

p.s. the other 'second relay' "mod" is also a hack that is not worth doing.

Again, my apologies for the harsh truths, no way to sugar coat it.

No problem! Straight talk is fine. If I had been able to find a thread that pointed to the clutch switch when my bike started to intermittently leave me stranded, I would have bought a new switch... Maybe this post will help others with what is undoubtedly a common failure.

But, I had dug deep trying to just get the thing running As it had stopped running intermitently and went to full fail. Frustrating.

I did, after trying the second relay hack with bad results, disconnect the ground to the starter relay and independently run a ground from the relay as you suggested. That resulted, again, in leave me stranded mode... Sometimes worked, sometimes didn't...it would always turn over, but wouldn't always start, so it'd just run the battery down... More fun being stranded.

At this point I still wasn't sure it was the clutch switch... Then I metered the switch and simply reattached the starter relay ground and ran a grounding leg. Boom! Bike runs all the time, every time. Since then I've put about 2000 miles on it.

So, Yes I should just buy a switch...... Now we know it's the switch. I think Triumph has a Lucas electrical system reminiss of Jaguar lights that flicker fame...

@JSHRAM Believe you me, we FEEL your pain. Fifty years ago, people lived with 'unreliable'. My father had a tool box in the car, and I have many childhood memories of being on the side of the road underneath the car, handing my father tools (and if at night, holding the flashlight). And the vehicles were "fuel and spark".

Roll forward, with their greater complexity (beautiful descriptions here @DEcosse et. al., and elsewhere [for some reason, reminds me of looking at the art and sculpture of the great masters in museums]) and our sensibilities have changed to the point -- few things are more disturbing than a machine the operates intermittently - usually relegates it to garage queen status.

Thank you for coming forward to enable this excellent discussion.

Hope you are soon sorted, and get back to us, please.

JSHRAM said:

No problem! Straight talk is fine. If I had been able to find a thread that pointed to the clutch switch when my bike started to intermittently leave me stranded, I would have bought a new switch... Maybe this post will help others with what is undoubtedly a common failure.

But, I had dug deep trying to just get the thing running As it had stopped running intermitently and went to full fail. Frustrating.

I did, after trying the second relay hack with bad results, disconnect the ground to the starter relay and independently run a ground from the relay as you suggested. That resulted, again, in leave me stranded mode... Sometimes worked, sometimes didn't...it would always turn over, but wouldn't always start, so it'd just run the battery down... More fun being stranded.

At this point I still wasn't sure it was the clutch switch... Then I metered the switch and simply reattached the starter relay ground and ran a grounding leg. Boom! Bike runs all the time, every time. Since then I've put about 2000 miles on it.

So, Yes I should just buy a switch...... Now we know it's the switch. I think Triumph has a Lucas electrical system reminiss of Jaguar lights that flicker fame...

Click to expand...

I did post about this.