New R3 Roadster - TOR no secondaries

[mully95]

Interesting...

 

[Evil Mitch]

Is anyone sure about the throttle plates not increasing the midrange power in the 1st gears (not 4 and 5th of course)? I ask because it sure feels like there is way more power midrange in the 1st few gears. Plus, strangely enough, I went through the exact same thing on my last bike. I had the 1st model year of the zx14 and it was really restricted in the lower gears as well – they loosed the restriction with later years, but it turns out it was limited by throttle secondary’s – and there was even a company that made a plug and play “timing retard eliminator” that made the bike run in 4th gear.
Know I realize they are very different machines, but it seems to me they both use the secondaries to limit power –
http://www.bikeland.org/story.php?storyID=24810
A great job by Brock performance that really settled that issue with the 14. If you don’t want to read all that the final conclusion was that just by removing those plates and a new fuel map (the ecu wasn’t very sophisticated in those) the midrange gained almost 32lb torque – or an increase of almost 60% at that range!! And spit out 21 more horse too.
Like I said I know they are different machines – 1400cc and 2300cc and the 14 reved higher, but with that experience and the change I feel in the roadster I really think there is a significant midrange power increase in the 1st gears.

That is correct the ecu closes the secondaries to restrict the power you are asking for when you roll on the throttle it cant do this with them open 100% or removed. the bike still produces the same power its just you have access to the power because the ecu isnt able to close the secondaries when u ask for that power. Im sure one of the guys with a better understanding than me will chime in soon.

 

[hart24601]

I understand Mitch, I just didn't quite get how you worded it at 1st, my mistake. I didn’t mean it changed the max power, but that it gives more power in the midrange like the 14 was restricted. Looks like the same sorta deal with the 14, funny how 2 bikes a row have the same system.
Same max power as the secondaries open 100% higher in rev range and in 4th and 5th. I saw a map of the stock position and TOR and I remember at parts of midrange they were only open 20 or 30% and thats regardless of how much throttle is applied - only as RPM increases do they open up in lower gears. I would love to see how much removing, either manual or with tune, increases the midrange. Sure feels like a huge amount.

 

[Evil Mitch]

yeah i have them open 100% in the tune and i removed the butterflys just to be sure its always good to be able to access the power you payed for

 

[HellFire]

Opening or removing the secondaries does help but there is still retarded timing built into the first three gears. Advancing the ignition timing to what the engine can handle without pre-detonation makes it more efficient and powerful. Fixing the slow to open and not fully opening secondaries needs to be followed with fixing the retarded timing.

 

[hart24601]

Does anyone know how much the ignition is retarded and not just how much the bikes are restricted? I saw a post where someone talked about a builder not finding much power difference besides opening the secondaries. It didn't have any dyno graphs in that post tho.

 

[HellFire]

It's an overall 7% power reduction built into the first three gears from the factory to make the bike safer for inexperienced riders.
You most likely aren't experiencing much power increase from just removing the secondaries, just quicker throttle response.

 

[1098cracy]

tors

Hi, I wasn't that impressed with the power either when i got my roadster, So have gone straight for the TORS, tripple K&N's, secondaries removed and a PCV which came with a custom map for the mods I'd done, Had it on a dyno, 135 BHP and 166 ft lbs torque, and I am now well impressed with the differance this has made to the bike
all the way.And the map was spot on.
cheers
graham

 

[hart24601]

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.

I am not trying to stir anything up or anything like that, but how do we know about the ignition retardation or how much it is? I have read about the tuneecu programing in the guide for 4th and 5th gear, but from what I understand there is not specific timing ie 10 degree advance in this gear but only 5 in another. It just reminds me about the HUGE debate with the zx14 and some ppl claming that the limits were all timing related while others like that link said it was all butterflies and there wasn't any dyno difference. I would guess some people even now argue that the 14 restrictions are all timing.

It doesn't really matter all the much to me, but I'm just curious (I am a scientist after all) if anyone has "proof" of the timing change and how much it is.

 

[HellFire]

It's not like the good old days when you turn the distributor and set base timing to 10 degrees before top dead center with the vacuum advance plugged off, timing tables are written into the ECU programming just like fuel trim. You either rewrite the tables or trick it into thinking it's operating in another gear's programming. Custom tunes are as individual as finger prints and timing can vary widely based on rpm and load. Tune ECU will allow you to tinker with tables but do you really want to do that?? Better know what your doing or it gets messy really fast. Since they put alot of effort into setting the timing for best power delivery in high gears, I just installed a little toy (GiPro) to use those tables and another (PCIII) to deliver more fuel for the low restriction intake and exhaust ... easy as pie and dependable too.

I've had a few bikes over the years and the only ones that would wheelie with a simple twist of the wrist from pure torque without yanking on the bars, shifting weight or using the clutch have been dirt bikes and my R3 after installing the GiPro and removing the secondaries. And none of the dirt bikes weighed 800+ lbs and had as long a wheelbase.