Clutch cable adjustment

[xlr8tion]

Yeah; we were taught that at MC rider's school, too.





When I put mine in neutral; there're several cars (stopped) both ahead and behind me.

So...let us resurrect the topic...Here are my symptoms which started today/

1. Running bike will not shift into neutral from first on any gear with clutch lever pulled in. Turn engine off....Will come out of 1st into neutral but will not click into first.

2. Once in neutral....Start bike and pull clutch lever in (cant hear clutch as the tors are too loud)and going into 1st is a LOUD CLUNK. and bike moves forward 4 inches.
If I release the handle less than 0.5mm the bike seems to creep like the clutch is barely disengaged with the lever pulled all the way in.

3. This manifested itself today and once I get her rolling I can quick shift through the gears but I think the clutch is barely disengaging with full lever pull back.

4. Have had bike for 2000 miles and shifting has become progressively clunkier and hardest to engage into 1st.

5. Seems to be NO FREE PLAY on clutch handle. ANY MOVEMENT of clutch lever causes movement of clutch arm at clutch.....ZERO PLAY.

6. She is defininitely creeping in first....I would usually have a fair amount of clutch lever release before engagement...Now I barely start releasing handle and bike creeps.

7. Tried Setting lever cable adjustment and still no free play. Move the lever .5 mm- Clutch arm moves. at max distance....no go..does not eliminate creep.

8. Full pull of clutch lever emits slight noise behind clutch cover plate.


Any ideas..Bike cable looks to be in good condition and how to get the FREE PLAY back with the engine guards blocking the lower adjustment bolts lever at the clutch to rise more than 1/2 inch when I fully pull the lever in ....Can the adjustment be made at the cable at the clutch lever...As long as I l leave the large diameter adjuster alone. How do I obtain the 2-3 MM of free ply at the lever w/out the lower clutch arm from moving? Is that adjusted on the the lower arm near where the engine guards mount up?

Not riding the bike till I get this straightened out as I have read of the devastating consequences of a not properly adjusted clutch cable.

Just got my TORS and delete on and then this happens...Its a british thang!

Thanks....Greg

 

[Pedro]

First off,What oil are you using.

 

[Pedro]

Have you had the small lever off the lifter shaft,adjustment can be made down at the lower postion near the lifter shaft this changes how the clutch lever behaves ,also it will let you get some play up at the clutch leaver ,do not use with out play or you will be pulling the clutch cover off.
If you have not been playing with the adjustments it may be you fibers and plates are not releasing ,low oil supply to the plates or wrong oil selection

 

[xlr8tion]

Have you had the small lever off the lifter shaft,adjustment can be made down at the lower postion near the lifter shaft this changes how the clutch lever behaves ,also it will let you get some play up at the clutch leaver ,do not use with out play or you will be pulling the clutch cover off.
If you have not been playing with the adjustments it may be you fibers and plates are not releasing ,low oil supply to the plates or wrong oil selection

Have you had the small lever off the lifter shaft,adjustment can be made down at the lower postion near the lifter shaft this changes how the clutch lever behaves ,also it will let you get some play up at the clutch leaver ,do not use with out play or you will be pulling the clutch cover off.
If you have not been playing with the adjustments it may be you fibers and plates are not releasing ,low oil supply to the plates or wrong oil selection

530AM in the morning....4 hours of wrenching ....Here is what I have learned...IMPOSSIBLE to get the 2-3 MM Free Play unless you do what PEDRO says.....

Have adjusted the actuator arm nuts all the way and this has tilted the actuator arm up but creates NO FREE play.

I think the major confusion is IF THERE SHOULD BE 2-3 MM of Clutch lever free movement before the ACTUATOR ARM STARTS moving....Triumph says yes...Many say no and are looking at the space of the cable sleeve to collet at the lever as FREE PLAY..which is not triumph spec. To get FREE PLAY...I will have to remove the actuator arm, which is under tension and will be a BIATCH to get off as it will have to be pried off with it being under tension unless I remove the clutch cable from the actuator arm and make sure the actuator spline is marked so if it spins back you know where you were before the actuator arm off. Then the actuator arm will have to, as pedro said, have to be repositioned to free up enough cable length, wire, not sheathing, to allow the 2-3 mm to exist. I had it the actuator adjustment at full adjustment and still had no FREE PLAY, Was able to shift into and out of neutral easy and I could hear the clutch engaging when I released the lever 1/3 of the way. I am not sure if that meets the prerequisites but page 106 to 108(thanks IDK) clearly state that the 2-3 mm of Free Play is in the lever and you are not going to get that unless the clutch actuator arm is NOT MOVING for the first 2-3 mm of clutch lever pull.

Not sure how difficult that actuator arm is to get off as the clutch cable is pulling on with 20-30 lbs of force so it will be a chore to get it off and approximate it on the Spline.

Warp..Not sure if you are in agreement with this but why would triumph spec 2-3 mm of lever movement FREE PLAY before the actuator arm starts moving unless they has a specific reason.....Like I said...I have no free play...Neutral and 1st engage without a clunk anymore and the clutch engages with 1/4 to 1/3 lever release...So I do know it was better than when I posted the question but I do not want to blow the clutch out or the MC equicalent of the throw out bearing.....

Love them British Bikes...

Please opine on the necesssity of FREE PLAY without the ACTUATOR arm movimg and not using the cable sheath to ferrule on the clutch lever as an alternative.....

Thanks...Greg

PS...Those with HIGHWAY biars...Pull the left side of the raditator off.

 

[Pedro]

There must be 2-3mm of free play before the internal part of the lifter shaft pushes on the clutch peice.it can be measured at the top or bottom as long as it is there .the shaft rotates untill it takes up the freeplay it then pushes the fibers and plates apart .if you dont have freeplay it will stress and crack or wear the lifter shaft away ,fail.repair.
The small actuator arm should have no waight pulling on it at all with the cable released ,the internal spring is light . the five clutch springs are strong ,and should not be held open by the clutch lever

 

[warp9.9]

@xlr8tion , Peter is right and pretty much a clutch expert the free play is inside the clutch cover, you will not see it and it is so little you can however feel it if you use your hand down on the actuator arm.
So that being said you will see the arm rotate as you pull the clutch lever. The first little bit of rotation is taking up the free play and then pulls the lifter pie against the pressure plate releasing the spring pressure on the clutch. with pressure released the oil helps the fibers and steels slide by each other.

What your feeling is free play you can not measure it down there only up top like the book states

Now the two nuts on the bottom bracket are for cable sheath length adjustment. Say your cable stretches over time. this would make you start to lose the clutch lever adjuster do to having to unscrew it to take up for the extra stretched cable so you can increase the sheath length to make up for it. This is where you would lengthen the cable sheath and then go back and adjust the free play. I just looked at mine and it is more of a pain with engine guards. But if you need to adjust it pull the three bolts off the radiator cover on the left side (the top one has a brass bushing in it. Once you slip the chrome cover off you will be able to unbolt the chrome screen on the back of the radiator if need to get at the top nut. Usually this is pretty much centered. Now if you want to pull the cable off the clutch actuator arm I found it easier to slacken the cable at the top and then pull the two bolts out of the clutch cover that hold the cable bracket to the engine. Then I slip the cable out of the actuator arm. it will rotate backwards some from the internal return spring. do not worry as it will all line back up. Also the crank arm on at least on our early models has location marks on it. A mark on the arm and the shaft to line it up. This can be off by one spline tooth either way and not affect anything.

Now first I find it hard to check the free play like in the manual above so I just check it at the adjusting fer-rel first with with the clutch lever just sitting there. Note there is no gap between the cable sheath fer-rel and the adjuster Marked below.

the I just adjust the cable slack so I can just grab the gable and pull it out 2-3 mm. Marked below

note that when you do this the clutch actuator arm rotates slightly until it takes up the slack on the lifter piece. You can feel it when it does.

Now I know this is not in the book but I have to admit it was a Triumph Tech that showed it to me He said it was just easier imagine that.

Now after you confirm proper adjustment if the problem is still there we will move on.
Note not enough free play releases the clutch spring tension on the clutch pack allowing the clutch to slip from reducing the clamping pressure. And as Peter stated above put undue wear on the lifter shaft, lifter piece, and since your is a silver motor the needle thrust bearing on yours. Not to much free pay can make it harder to find the gears (maybe hear the dogs grind as the line up) Also it could be a worn lifter shaft which will not allow the clutch action that pull the clutch open enough kind of like your only pulling the lever half way. This can happen from a few things one being improper adjustment prematurely wears the lifter shaft because there was pressure on it (no Free play) this creates heat burning the lifter shaft like in the picture below good on the left bad/burnt on the right. Also holding the clutch in and revving the nuts off the motor is a great way to screw up a lifter piece and or lifter shaft or both.

Of course we must verify proper adjustment first or in this case the first thing I would do is slacken the cable adjuster at the clutch lever as much as I could so the cable is lose but you do not take it out just make it sloppy once you do this reach down to the clutch actuator arm and move it with your hand. you will see it will only rotate a wee bit in both directions forward actuates the clutch pack (meaning your lifter shaft and lifter piece have no free play or in other words no clearance) the other way backwards you will feel the cut out of the lifter shaft hit the front fact of the lifter piece. Let me know what you feel.


Hope this helps time for a cup of Joe

 

[xlr8tion]

The manual shows where to check the 2-3mm movement.

Yes....at the clutch lever on the diagram that Scott has so kindly posted up..I printed the pages, thanks to IDK, and Triumph is causing alot of confusion with the diagram that clearly shows the 2-3mm of free play is to be measured at the lever at what is marked "2" on Warps diagram. This is what is confusing is that it is not possible AFAIK, to create a 2-3mm gap in the Clutch hand lever itself. Adjusting at the actuator bracket lifts the actuator arm up which, according to Peter, is a NO NO. My Cable is not stretched out as I am adjusting so that the actuator arm has llifted "up" about 3 to 4 mm(I marked it with a permanent marker before I started adjusting it

@Pedro.....You said there should be no tension on the actuator arm when you release clutch lever? But when you make the adjustment on the adjustment nuts on my bike the actuator has risen up 3-4 mm as when you turn the top adjuster nut on the bracket above the actuator-it raises the actuator arm. So this must be putting more tension on the spring. Pedro....will there be 2-3 mm gap at the clutch hand lever or does, as many people have said, the actuator arm start moving immediately when you pull the clutch lever even 1/2 mm? This is what is so confusing. Triumph makes NO MENTION of doing the adjustment and the hand lever and all free play adjustment is to be made at the lower adjustment bracket above the actuator. Tun the nut Clockwise....actuator moves up....Counter Clockwise and actuator lever moves down.

@warp9.9 .....Scott... you never fail to really come through with the data and I do not have sufficient words to thank you for all the work you have put in that post. Whether I have the top side adjustment all the way in or out I still have the same 1 cm gap between the cable sheath and collet.

I would just trust it by the improved "feel" as I described earlier in my preceding post, but Pedro has me a bit concerned in that I have adjusted the actuator arm up 3-4mm and I do not know if I am loading the spring he says should not be loaded.

I will shoot some pictures later and post them up of my original and current actuator positions(you can see the move as I marked it before I started adjusting it) and I will post pics of the Cable sheath Free play up top with my current adjustment.

Here is a question...How far should the clutch lever be let out before in engages..?

Thanks to all you guys so much...Triumph has really thrown a spanner into the process with that diagram showing the 2-3mm of FREE PLAY at the Clutch lever.....

Cheers...Greg

 

[warp9.9]

If you have 1 cm gap at the fer-rel no matter how slack you adjust it I would suspect you do not see the clutch actuator arm move at all. If it is moving a bunch you could as you discussed add some sheath length down at the bracket by loosening the bottom nut and tighten the top. If this does not work then I am suspecting internal problem. Is there any tension on the cable or is the clutch lever floppy?

 

[xlr8tion]

If you have 1 cm gap at the fer-rel no matter how slack you adjust it I would suspect you do not see the clutch actuator arm move at all. If it is moving a bunch you could as you discussed add some sheath length down at the bracket by loosening the bottom nut and tighten the top. If this does not work then I am suspecting internal problem. Is there any tension on the cable or is the clutch lever floppy?

Scott...

Being the idiot I am the 1 CM I mentioned was the sheath not the ferrule gap...Took too many Xanax at 530 a so I was not tracking when I read your comprehensive post. I think I need to lower the actuator arm to where it was and try to make the adjustment at the knurled adjustment and check for the ferrule to handle gap.

If. that fails I will take the actuator arm. off per your detailed method...but I FINALLY get the free play theory Scott.

Third time is a charm...


Back to the bike....


Thanks...Greg

PS...I am running the Triumph Spec'd Castrol 10W-40 4T.Oil level is fine .Next change will be switching to Alisyn sold by Aerospace.

 

[xlr8tion]

Well here are the actuator/spline pics...Warp...great instructions....found it easier to adjust actuator arm by just loosening bracket for adjustor-open end wrench works 10x faster if you loosen these two bolts..Looks like in the position where it was before I worked on it it(I marked it with a permanent marker below the actuator) the spline approximation dot is in the two oclock position and the actuator is hard to tell if approximated as it does not have a dot. HOWEVER....UNLIKE YOUR BIKE WARP...mine does not have an alignment dot so I went off the gap in the Actuator arm...


Any who...Here are the pics and my question for @Warp and @Pedro is should I pull the actuator and reposition it aligned on the spline and does it mean that the is there a universal optimal location for that dot on the spline when the bike is new-say 12 oclock? Warp yours looks to be at about 2 oclock as well..

One last thing I noticed was a faint clicking sound on the clutch cover during the first 1/3 of travel of the actuator arm as the cable pulls it upward....Is is better to adjust the free play above this cliclking tapping sound-or is that normal...Here are the pics....

Thinking clearly and have the concept down now...Just wondering should I realign and readjust the spline to the actuator arm...

Thanks.....Greg