RIIIT Tranny problems

[scot in exile]

I heard through the grapevine that TonyMac has had a few problems with Trannys

 

[fastfreight]

Is this a design flaw?

I have followed discussion of this issue in earlier posts. I have never heard of a situation where you could do serious damage to a transmission because of the amount of slack in the clutch cable. The worst consequence I ever heard of was burning a clutch because of too little slack, and you could tell that was happening right away because you would get slip. Do you technical gurus out there have any views on this? Are there other bike trannies that have a similar clutch actuation? Or am I all wet on this?

 

[Sidecar Flip]

I heard through the grapevine that TonyMac has had a few problems with Trannys

His (your) tranny's and this tranny are distinctly different animals or should I say entities. We ain't talking about transvestites here, at least I don't think we are...are we??

I have followed discussion of this issue in earlier posts. I have never heard of a situation where you could do serious damage to a transmission because of the amount of slack in the clutch cable. The worst consequence I ever heard of was burning a clutch because of too little slack, and you could tell that was happening right away because you would get slip. Do you technical gurus out there have any views on this? Are there other bike trannies that have a similar clutch actuation? Or am I all wet on this?

Obviously you never had a early model Brit bike. They didn't have lifter shafts but they had a button release and like the R3, you could destroy the clutch actuation mechanism with too little freeplay or by holding the clutch disengaged and revving gthe motor (it can be done with the R3 as well...I believe Walt did it). With the R3, you destroy the milled cutout in the lifter shaft, with an early Brit bike, you weld the button to the actuator shaft.

2-3mm freeplay at the clutch lever measured between the lever boss and the lever itself. No freeplay means the lifter piece is in constant contact with the shaft cutout and in pretty short order, the inherent friction destroys the boundary layer of lubricant (oil) and the lifter piece begins machining the lifter shaft...until it breaks and you have no clutch.

The bellcrank (at the engine case) also needs to have the proper pre-load but the only time that comes into play is if you change the clutch or cable and isn't germane to this discussion.

That design is common between the all the Rockets. It's not model specific or year specific.

People, in general, should learn how to use a clutch properly. Proper use of a clutch (unless it's a Rekluse or a Nev Lush unit) is as little as possible.

Clutches are merely a means to break the torque flow and allow the transmission to shift gears or allow you to come to a complete stop and get underway again. That's it.

Absolutely the worst case scenario is revving the engine with the clutch disengaged, which is actually opposite of what you think. When the clutch is disengaged, all the force is placed on the lifter piece, shaft and cable because you have the plates seperated and that force equates to friction...and failure. Never do that.

You want to rev the engine, put it in neutral and race it...with the clutch engaged and no pressure on the release mechanism.

Shifting between gears is simply a matter of disengaging the clutch enough to break the torque flow and engaging the shift mechanism to change gears...

You want to act like that clutch lever is red hot...keep your mitts off it as much as possible.

.....and you want to check the freeplay, often. 2-3mm. Cheap insurance for an expensive fix.

I got into the habit long ago, of putting my bikes (all of them) into neutral as I completely came to a stop at a traffic light and then shifting from neutral to first gear as the light changed to green. Less strain on the release mechanism (and throwout bearing in your car too).

Treat your clutch right and it will last the life of the bike (or car)(or truck). I've never replaced a clutch because of wear or toasted a throwout bearing or button release or lifter shaft. Never.

 

[fastfreight]

Thanks Flip, but I still have a question. I would expect design know-how to have advanced since the early Brit bikes, and I have never heard of an issue like this with a recent model Japanese or German bike. Do they have a different clutch actuation mechanism? I too have driven nothing but stick shift cars all my life and have never had any transmission or premature clutch wear issues with any of them. My shifting habits sound similar to yours, but I sometimes do blip (not race) the throttle with the clutch in when starting off in 1st because spinning the engine gives you a smoother start, particularly with a thumper like your KLR. I'd hate to think that this practice could wear the lifter shaft over time.

 

[azbbqer]

People, in general, should learn how to use a clutch properly. Proper use of a clutch (unless it's a Rekluse or a Nev Lush unit) is as little as possible.

Clutches are merely a means to break the torque flow and allow the transmission to shift gears or allow you to come to a complete stop and get underway again. That's it.

I probably use mine less than most. I quite frequently don't even use the clutch when changing gears.This is the first I have heard that you should not idle with the clutch depressed. The motorcycle safety courses and Motor Vehicle Department say that you should never sit at a light or stop in neutral for safety reasons.

Absolutely the worst case scenario is revving the engine with the clutch disengaged, which is actually opposite of what you think. When the clutch is disengaged, all the force is placed on the lifter piece, shaft and cable because you have the plates seperated and that force equates to friction...and failure. Never do that. [\QUOTE]

This is the first I have heard that you should not idle with the clutch depressed. The motorcycle safety courses and Motor Vehicle Department say that you should never sit at a light or stop in neutral for safety reasons.

.....and you want to check the freeplay, often. 2-3mm. Cheap insurance for an expensive fix.[\QUOTE]

This is good info to have. I have never changed the adjustment on mine. So if there was not enough "free play", it came that way from the dealer/factory.

I got into the habit long ago, of putting my bikes (all of them) into neutral as I completely came to a stop at a traffic light and then shifting from neutral to first gear as the light changed to green. Less strain on the release mechanism (and throwout bearing in your car too).

Treat your clutch right and it will last the life of the bike (or car)(or truck). I've never replaced a clutch because of wear or toasted a throwout bearing or button release or lifter shaft. Never.

As you can see by my profile, I have had a few bike. I've ridden even more. This is the first clutch issue I have ever had. And with just over 5k on the Rocket!

Thanks again for all the info.

 

[Sidecar Flip]

Thanks Flip, but I still have a question. I would expect design know-how to have advanced since the early Brit bikes, and I have never heard of an issue like this with a recent model Japanese or German bike. Do they have a different clutch actuation mechanism? I too have driven nothing but stick shift cars all my life and have never had any transmission or premature clutch wear issues with any of them. My shifting habits sound similar to yours, but I sometimes do blip (not race) the throttle with the clutch in when starting off in 1st because spinning the engine gives you a smoother start, particularly with a thumper like your KLR. I'd hate to think that this practice could wear the lifter shaft over time.

Maybe I should have said, holding the clutch lever in (disengaged) and revving the engine repeatedly.

You have to remember that the R3 has a large clutch with stiff springs to handle the power (not that it will handle much more than it already does) but because the springs are heavy, it takes considerable force to keep the plates disengaged and that force is concentrated on the lifter piece and lifter shaft and the shaft is immovable in the same plane as the piece. Your car or truck has a roller bearing throwout (old VW's had a carbon disc). The roller throwout is more forgiving because it's a bearing and it reduces friction whereas the VW's carbon disc and the R3 have no roller friction reducing benefit. It was easy to weld the throwout fingers on a VW to the pressure plate...back in the day.

That's why the freeplay is important on the R3. Any condition that keeps the lifter shaft and the lifter piece in engagement with each other for an extended time, will result in failure and that failure is a broken lifter shaft. It don't really break, it gets eaten away by the lifter piece intil it fails.

It's not the best design but it works and it's convienent to manufacture. It just takes a bit of understanding on the owner's part to insure it's longevity.

I never elevate the engine rpm when I pull away with the KLR. It has heavy flywheels and a long stroke so it has gobs of low end torque. Just feed it out, and go. Now, my Bonnie with the sidecar is a different animal. It takes some clutch feathering but to that end, I installed a Barnett HD clutch pack but I left the stock springs in the pressure plate just for the friction reason even though the Bonnie uses a ball bearing release, unlike the R3.

 

[azbbqer]

I never elevate the engine rpm when I pull away with the KLR. It has heavy flywheels and a long stroke so it has gobs of low end torque. Just feed it out, and go. Now, my Bonnie with the sidecar is a different animal. It takes some clutch feathering but to that end,

I brag on the fact that I can idle away from a dead stop while riding 2-up. You don't have to slip the clutch to do it either. You just can't "pop" it. The Harleys and Beamers can't do that!

 

[warp9.9]

Has anyone had this problem on an R3T?
Pulled up to a stop light on the way home tonight. Was at almost a complete stop and in first gear, with the clutch lever completely depressed, the bike suddenly lurched forward and stalled. Just like the clutch cable broke. The problem is inside the tranny! Had to push the beast a mile home, on one of the hottest days this year. I'm beat! And none too happy!

if you lifter shaft is broken your clutch handle will be sloppy and you should be able to reach down by the clutch cover and pull the shaft out of the bike. if it is not sloppy then my money is on the lifter piece.
I have not seen one burn and gaul so much as to not crab the lifter piece yet and I only know of one lifter piece that has broken so my money is on the shaft

adjustment is critical 2-3 mm I stay towards the 3 mm side



riding the clutch like a car will likely ware the shaft like a throw out bearing on a car I have broke a couple myself learning. If you have problems getting one do to back order let me know I have couple extra ones and a couple lifter pieces also. If you are in the USA then call Scott lukaitus at freehold honda Triumph parts department 732-462-4881 you will need a clutch cover gasket also! its about a 4 hour job if you have done it before, otherwise I would allow for 6 hours dry. 8+ with lots of beer longer if your buddies are over drinking your beer as you will be the only sober one for more beer runs
check to make sure your engine serial nummber matches the bike vin as they do not all match you won't go wrong using the engine serial number.

 

[BigWillie]

Has anyone had this problem on an R3T?
Pulled up to a stop light on the way home tonight. Was at almost a complete stop and in first gear, with the clutch lever completely depressed, the bike suddenly lurched forward and stalled. Just like the clutch cable broke. The problem is inside the tranny! Had to push the beast a mile home, on one of the hottest days this year. I'm beat! And none too happy!

Same thing happened to me a couple of months ago at about 6K miles. The shaft broke along with the end that engages the clutch itself. If the dealer has the part it doesn't take long to fix. Mine had to order the parts but got it done in a hurry. They told me it was very uncommon but the guys here on the forum seemed to have some proof otherwise.

 

[warp9.9]

Same thing happened to me a couple of months ago at about 6K miles. The shaft broke along with the end that engages the clutch itself. If the dealer has the part it doesn't take long to fix. Mine had to order the parts but got it done in a hurry. They told me it was very uncommon but the guys here on the forum seemed to have some proof otherwise.

Maybe its just uncomon to your dealer or he is just talking about the R3T which has the same parts as the R3 at any rate sometimes they are hard to get and as for tent stakes they are not the best.



keep in mind although they are weakly designed they usually fail do to improper adjustment and or say pulling on them when your clutch is in full lock up is another reason as with one of mine. I do know of people who have put tons of miles on them without breaking one me I am not as lucky but I have learned. I might add I have yet to break a lifter piece but I thought if I can break the shaft well you know

This is why I state proper adjustment is critical to the life span of the shaft and Flip is right about the other reasons that can cause failure!!!! to much pull and over reving the engine can cause a burn out affect between the two pieces do to spring pressures which can tend to over thrust the clutch head bearing and or flex the lifter shaft to far to many times till failure occurs.
Just my 2 cents worth.