Questions: Tuneboy, TuneECU, PC5, and Carpenter

Looking for some input from those familiar with tuning. I had the bike done at Carpenter, I waited a couple weeks, then called Bob with some questions I had thought of. I'm getting the feeling that Bob knows a hell of a lot about motors, but is not real comfortable with the computer end of it. I asked him about accepting trims on PC5 Autotune. He said he wouldn't advise it, he's seen Autotune trims that are "way out there", or something like that. I asked him about going in with TuneECU and adjusting the idle, I thought he liked it higher, it seems to be about 850. Or changing the rev limiter. He said he "wouldn't advise it, electronics are funny, you never know what will happen".

My impression after the conversation was "I have no idea, so I'm going to say no". Like I said, I have no doubt that he knows engines and performance well enough to write a book on it, but you can kind of tell when someone just isn't comfortable with technology, I'm no wrench, nor computer wiz, but I can't see any reason changing parameters on items that don't affect timing or AFR would affect the whole shebang. And I thought Autotune was a required part of the package, for some reason, but he doesn't like it.
Edit: I'm also curious if PC stays with the initial sttings, or lets Autotune influence the tune if you don't accept trims, as someone mentioned.

Actually Autotune is not required as Bob can tune in the PCV on the dyno. As far as I know you are the first one who had him install the sutotune feature. they have done comparisons and although autotune is good especially for those who do not have a tune near them it does not create as much Horspower as a tune can on the dyno. This does not mean it is bad just not a totla power tuning unit. As for you idle I know Zen wanted his a little higher so he just moved the closed throttle set screw about 1/8 of a turn and said it raised the idle and had no ill affects. When I run into a low problem the first thign I preform is a Full ISCV reset. I am not sure what you idle is set at in the tune boy program you could take a look at that and make sure it is set at 950 rpms which is what I like on mine. I am not sure if your auto tune is pulling something out at idle but Hans is real knowledgeable on the auto tune feature. You might want to pick his brain. Also compare what trims autotune wants to change verses whats in the actual PCV trims.

I haven't accepted any trims, or touched anything, yet. I hate to question Bob's judgement, but I appreciate any input. I have the LCD unit, which finally gives me a tach, the LCD looks like it's showing 850 rpm or so, I haven't checked it against TuneECU for accuracy. I only got the Autotune because I thought I remembered, apparently incorrectly, that Bob said to get it when I originally talked to him.

The question you should ask Hans is does it run on the main trims as autotune is working or does the autotune start acting like the trim table until you commit them. As for autotune you most like misunderstood Bob when he said you will need the PCV unit. I also know you have the first LCD dash he hooked up. What does the A?F ration on the dash look like?

Jumps around a lot at idle, like the tach, but once underway it is pretty readable. Yes, I think I definitely misremembered about the AT, but I needed it to have the tach function, which I really wanted, so it wasn't wasted money. I switched the reading to tach only, as it gave you a larger, more readable "analog appearance" tach. The LCD is pretty cool, I haven't even downloaded the manual yet, but it gives you a ton of options for the display, the tach is adjustable for any rpm range or redline setting, I'm real happy I got that, as far as I know it's the only solution for a tachometer on a Touring. It also allows you to switch between tunes, but I'm not sure how I could come up with an alternate for optimized gas mileage or something, I never thought to ask Bob if that were possible.

Between the weather and work not seeming to slow down at all, I've really had very little time on the bike since I got it back. This weekend has been rainy, windy and cold, the beginning of the week looks good, but M-W looks like 12 hour days for me.

Yes, I am hoping Hanso will chime in here, I was running his tune before I did the Carpenter package, it was much better than the one I had been running.

With the A/F reading and TPS position on the LCD you should also be able to adjust the fueling manually as you drive something like I do when I stick the laptop on the tank only your changes will be emidiate where I have to stop and flash the ecu. Of course once I get versed on the new tune boy I will be able to do real live tuning. As for the mutiple maps you should get one tuned for good fuel when you want to get spunky. Around here Shell sells the 107 turbo blue and allows you to pump it right into the tank unlike the 110 octane you have to put in a gas can. Now that you can do timing alterations with the PCV it might be worth looking into.

Wow where do I start firstly Bob would tuned it to suit his mods, so if you have his tune in there what AFR map are you running in the PCV + AT. I am only going on what I have read about the carpenter kits and that is they run fairly much like stock motor till you get the Revs up that being the case you could if want to run my AFR map as one of your maps in the LCD unit and run a zero map as the other so you can switch between Bob' map and mine, now the technical stuff
1) I don't accept my trims as I find it actually leans the AFR to much as the larger trim number are being generated whilst you are accelerating thru the region, so if you accept the trim in that area the next time you are cruising at that rev/ throttle range it will be running lean giving you flat spots in that area, I worked this out bytrial and error and believe me it Was Interesting I even puta tune in my ECU that was a lot leaner than I needed, went for a decent ride and was horrified to see negative trims thru the same acceleration range yet in other areas it was as I expecting it to add fuel.
I have since spoken to Neville who enlightened me, you see what happens is the AT does not know that you are are giving it a fist full to accelerate all it see is a lot of extra fuel suddenly coming thru raising the O2 levels in exhaust so it is trying to minimise the excess fuel and if you leave the AFR trim alone it all seems to work just fine. With you want send me your phone number and time of day that best suits you al so part of the states you are in and I will call and explain more

Oh and what Scot said about the PCV is fairly well on the money as there is no substitute for a good dyno tune but the PCV + AT will give you a bloody good compramise

Hans - do you use the map per gear feature? - This will reduce the averaging algorithm.

I cut my teeth on chemical sampling and analysis computers (there were the size of small bedrooms back then) simulating nuclear reactor meltdowns, so I have a pretty good idea how the AT works in correlation with the PC5. And I wrote statistical performance measurement software too - both finite and mathematical prediction. Had I a Dyno I'd break the algorithms.

Running 100% on A/T limits how far you can trim with any level of success. The aim should be to get the AT trim values to plus/minus 1. Then you can remove it. If it's steadfastly on 0 - it's probable that there simple are not enough relevant samples to make an adjustment prediction. You can test this by deliberately riding differently to your normal style.

The AT has NO idea what the TPS and RPM values are - But the PC5 does. The PC5 however does not know what gear you're in unless you tell it - and this degrades the statistical relevance of the sample. Dunno about you, but I ride differently in each gear. They can be temporarily out of sync - but the further you push off from 0 trim the higher the chance of statistical error.

I'm by no mean suggesting weekly trim acceptance - but the higher the trim value is the less likely it is that the AT will cope with "out of character" fuelling.

My "gut" tells me the AT trims towards low and then starts to build. I calculate a good 500kms as a base for trim/no trim analysis and commit/no commit. Mine has started trimming up with the ramair on.

Be cautious of trimming if the ambient temps are fluctuating across the 20-25ºC area. I think the OEM ECU is a bit sensitive in this area. Mine is anyway. A simple temp change can result in 5% trim difference.

This might end up being a plus for the new tune boy as they incorporated the wide band sensor into the ecu programing allowing th eecu to trim as needed verses the riding conditions presented.

I myself had the best luck with sticking the laptop on my tank and making changes as needed verses real time riding. Sure it takes a little more work and people look at you like your some kind of nutter watch a video while riding a bike so I had to venture out into areas where you would not run into vehicles. All in all it did help the bike run better but it sure took some time working it out. so many things to watch for on th eroad and gauges along with the laptop, but it was worth it IMO.