Big Goaler
.060 Over
He has been posting on the .com site lately.
jlm205
.040 Over
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 93
contact: wayne@power-tripp.com
Pig9r
Living Legend
Wayne - I see that you are back, welcome.
How do you tune via Tuneboy on the dyno? Do you do the PCIII emulate? Do you offer any performance engine parts?
How do you tune via Tuneboy on the dyno? Do you do the PCIII emulate? Do you offer any performance engine parts?
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
I've been BUSY lately. A GOOD thing.
Specific to the R3, I don't offer anything in the way of performance, just PCIII or TuneBoy and K&N filters. I am working on: 1.) an R3 specific air filter system with integrated velocity stacks - in 'glass or carbon. 2.) An aftermarket engine management system that is plug-and-play for the R3 - mostly for the supercharged/turbocharged guys. 3.) A stand alone active knock control system for the R3 - again mostly for the forced induction guys that do not want to go with a full engine management system.
I will be ceramic and dry film coating a set of stock R3 pistons later this week - as soon as they come in. These are for a supercharged R3 owner.
Tuning:
I own an eddy-current dyno that allows me a bit different operation than the old DynoJet would allow. So my SOP is a bit different than some others. No Tuning Link emulation, I make adjustments based on gas analysis and what the engine wants for best horsepower/torque - each engine will be a bit different.
After a warm up loading to get the engine and oil temps up, I normally step test every 1000 rpm at WOT to set a base line with Tuneboy.
Then I set up to step test every 500-1000 rpm (depending on the bike), and test each rpm point at varying throttle positions - making changes to the base tune in TuneEdit as I go. All based on what the gas analyzer indicates.
Shut off the engine, and load the changes. Go back and test again - repeat until each region is close on fuel, ignition advance, and cylinder stagger/offset. When the torque and HP readings show that fuel is optimized to what the engine wants, it is time to test ignition advance, and fine tune fuel for what the engine wants based on TQ/HP over a wide range of throttle positions and engine speeds.
Once correct, I tune the idle and cruise regions for leaner cruise conditions - for improved fuel consumption. In some cases, I go all the way to lean misfire, and then back off, but the AFR tales need to be reworked to allow this - or the Lambda sensor turned off.
I then test transient response at different loads/engine speeds and adjust the MAP tables to get the acceleration enrichment correct. Some of the TuneEdit maps (for some bikes) also allow adjusting the TP/MAP correction factors at different engine speeds. This sets how sensitive the ECU is to MAP sensor enrichment, and how it tapers off as engine speed increases.
I test and correct at normal and a bit hotter than normal engine and oil temps to make sure the tuning is correct for various riding conditions.
Final testing is done for a graph, while watching engine and oil temps.
Normal tuning SOP for most good shops.
I have 2 different R3s scheduled for TuneEdit tuning on Thursday. Both bikes have different modifications - one is cat delete, TORS, and undertank K&N; the other is Jardines, 3 K&N under bearclaw. perhaps they will put the final tunes up for others to download. I will ask. That is up to them - they will own the tunes, not me.
-Wayne
Specific to the R3, I don't offer anything in the way of performance, just PCIII or TuneBoy and K&N filters. I am working on: 1.) an R3 specific air filter system with integrated velocity stacks - in 'glass or carbon. 2.) An aftermarket engine management system that is plug-and-play for the R3 - mostly for the supercharged/turbocharged guys. 3.) A stand alone active knock control system for the R3 - again mostly for the forced induction guys that do not want to go with a full engine management system.
I will be ceramic and dry film coating a set of stock R3 pistons later this week - as soon as they come in. These are for a supercharged R3 owner.
Tuning:
I own an eddy-current dyno that allows me a bit different operation than the old DynoJet would allow. So my SOP is a bit different than some others. No Tuning Link emulation, I make adjustments based on gas analysis and what the engine wants for best horsepower/torque - each engine will be a bit different.
After a warm up loading to get the engine and oil temps up, I normally step test every 1000 rpm at WOT to set a base line with Tuneboy.
Then I set up to step test every 500-1000 rpm (depending on the bike), and test each rpm point at varying throttle positions - making changes to the base tune in TuneEdit as I go. All based on what the gas analyzer indicates.
Shut off the engine, and load the changes. Go back and test again - repeat until each region is close on fuel, ignition advance, and cylinder stagger/offset. When the torque and HP readings show that fuel is optimized to what the engine wants, it is time to test ignition advance, and fine tune fuel for what the engine wants based on TQ/HP over a wide range of throttle positions and engine speeds.
Once correct, I tune the idle and cruise regions for leaner cruise conditions - for improved fuel consumption. In some cases, I go all the way to lean misfire, and then back off, but the AFR tales need to be reworked to allow this - or the Lambda sensor turned off.
I then test transient response at different loads/engine speeds and adjust the MAP tables to get the acceleration enrichment correct. Some of the TuneEdit maps (for some bikes) also allow adjusting the TP/MAP correction factors at different engine speeds. This sets how sensitive the ECU is to MAP sensor enrichment, and how it tapers off as engine speed increases.
I test and correct at normal and a bit hotter than normal engine and oil temps to make sure the tuning is correct for various riding conditions.
Final testing is done for a graph, while watching engine and oil temps.
Normal tuning SOP for most good shops.
I have 2 different R3s scheduled for TuneEdit tuning on Thursday. Both bikes have different modifications - one is cat delete, TORS, and undertank K&N; the other is Jardines, 3 K&N under bearclaw. perhaps they will put the final tunes up for others to download. I will ask. That is up to them - they will own the tunes, not me.
-Wayne
goodfellow
Turbocharged
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 745
yep,
that's why I'll be taking mine out there...
greg
that's why I'll be taking mine out there...
greg
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
Wayne
What's your opinion on the detonation that occurred in Warp9's SC R3 after you tuned it?
When he fired up the bike on the dyno the first time, he had a backfire that scared the hell out of all 3 of us. He said it had never happened before, so I started looking closely at the gas analysis at idle and low engine speeds during warm up. Nothing seemed wrong, so we started tuning while watching for traces of knock. Thinking back now, I would have liked to have thrown a blow-by gauge on his crankcase, but we never saw signs of detonation on the dyno or in the gas analysis - I have even gone back and studied the traces closely trying to see if I missed anything.
The tune he had was lean at and near WOT at most points, and I wound up pulling 3 degrees at high rpm as well. I had to add even more fuel at engine speeds and loads because he had removed the MAP sensor for the supercharger kit - converting to old style SD. As a result, the bike did not respond well to sudden throttle opening without the additional fuel.
Before he left, I made him take it for a ride (as per normal). He said it had never pulled so well - especially on the top end. If it was detonating then, it would not have pulled so well under higher boost.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I am wondering if it started back at home due to fuel issues. Based on the photos, the bike definitely had detonation causing high temps and piston growth along the pin axis - not the thrust axis. But the area between the rings doesn't look like it had had poor ring seal for very long. Normally this will show poor seal easily by the coloration. I would like to see the head and gaskets to know how much detonation had occurred and for how long.
I am sending him an active knock control system that will retard ignition advance in each cylinder where knock is detected, and display the activity on a bar mounted gauge. It is tuned for the R3 3-banger and the bore diameter. I still would like to see him add a 2 bar MAP sensor. Running without one - especially under 13-14 psi - is not a smart thing, IMHO. I would also like to see an intercooler added.
What bothers me most is that I have heard of another detonating with the same SC kit without the MAP sensor. The kit is a good one, but I would like to see it only offered with a 2 bar MAP sensor.
-Wayne
Pig9r
Living Legend
Wayne - Put me in line for what you develop intake wise. The sooner the better. I have Nev's cams and Jardines and it appears I have reached the flow limit of the K&N RU-2780s.
Reagrding tuning, do you make changes in the trim tables then reload the tune or is there a better way? Do you have a set cost for the dyno tune or is it by the hour with Tuneboy?
Reagrding tuning, do you make changes in the trim tables then reload the tune or is there a better way? Do you have a set cost for the dyno tune or is it by the hour with Tuneboy?
hombre
Nitrous
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
- Messages
- 1,021
What TTS base tune was he running? (Scott will probably have to answer). The latest TTS base tune; "Rocket 3 SC disconnectedmapsensorbestmap.dat", goes WAY rich at WOT.
I've never been able to figure out why Richard decided to disconnect the MAP sensor and stepper motor, especially since it's so simple to keep them. I've been running a 2 bar sensor since day one with the SC. I even posted a "how to" here on installing a JayCar DFA to convert the MAP voltage for the stock ECU. Guess it's one of those "not invented at TTS" issues.
Good on you for helping Scott to avoid future problems (ceramics and knock system).
I've never been able to figure out why Richard decided to disconnect the MAP sensor and stepper motor, especially since it's so simple to keep them. I've been running a 2 bar sensor since day one with the SC. I even posted a "how to" here on installing a JayCar DFA to convert the MAP voltage for the stock ECU. Guess it's one of those "not invented at TTS" issues.
Good on you for helping Scott to avoid future problems (ceramics and knock system).
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
I am have seen the same issue with the RU-2780's. So I decided to see what I could do about it. The results so far look encouraging from the one piece unit using 3 molded velocity stacks and a single air filter. I am trying to find a different filter that uses roughly the same base size, but more flow than actually needed.
Unfortunately, it won't fit under a bearclaw, but does look good for a prototype.
I start with the trim tables, and only go to the individual tables if the offset is off. Even when tuning each cylinder with a nipple on individual header primary tubes, I find that there are places where the stagger needs to be different for different cylinders - more so if the intake and exhaust pulse tuning are tuned individually with velocity stack and primary tube length.
But yes, I make changes to the tables while loaded, then load the tune and test again. With the ability to log the gas results with notes, and make changes to the trim or individual tables while loaded at differing amounts of TP at the same rpm, it tends to be faster than just making a sweep, making changes, than loading and testing again. Not always, but usually. I can step or sweep based on what I need, but I tend to like to keep the F (TP) table corrections separate from the L (MAP) acceleration enrichment so that I can make a more clear distinction, and improve transient response.
I used to charge a set fee to tune with different tuning options, I have changed to charging a straight hourly fee for all types of tuning. This makes it a good bit cheaper for the customer, and easier to understand - especially if they are standing right there while I work like a madman for his/her hard earned Dollar and he/she can see what is involved and help/learn in the process.
Most tuning sessions with TuneEdit take 2-3 hours. I normally never charge for over 4 hours. Except on complete remapping of aftermarket or race kit ECUS, or forced induction bikes, if it takes over 4 hours (baring mechanical issues), I charge a flat fee or for half or whole day dyno/tuning time - but this is known going into the tuning session. Some 4D to 6D mapping can take a couple of days to fine tune, such as with dry nitrous tables for fuel and ignition, based on system pressure.
Unfortunately, it won't fit under a bearclaw, but does look good for a prototype.
I start with the trim tables, and only go to the individual tables if the offset is off. Even when tuning each cylinder with a nipple on individual header primary tubes, I find that there are places where the stagger needs to be different for different cylinders - more so if the intake and exhaust pulse tuning are tuned individually with velocity stack and primary tube length.
But yes, I make changes to the tables while loaded, then load the tune and test again. With the ability to log the gas results with notes, and make changes to the trim or individual tables while loaded at differing amounts of TP at the same rpm, it tends to be faster than just making a sweep, making changes, than loading and testing again. Not always, but usually. I can step or sweep based on what I need, but I tend to like to keep the F (TP) table corrections separate from the L (MAP) acceleration enrichment so that I can make a more clear distinction, and improve transient response.
I used to charge a set fee to tune with different tuning options, I have changed to charging a straight hourly fee for all types of tuning. This makes it a good bit cheaper for the customer, and easier to understand - especially if they are standing right there while I work like a madman for his/her hard earned Dollar and he/she can see what is involved and help/learn in the process.
Most tuning sessions with TuneEdit take 2-3 hours. I normally never charge for over 4 hours. Except on complete remapping of aftermarket or race kit ECUS, or forced induction bikes, if it takes over 4 hours (baring mechanical issues), I charge a flat fee or for half or whole day dyno/tuning time - but this is known going into the tuning session. Some 4D to 6D mapping can take a couple of days to fine tune, such as with dry nitrous tables for fuel and ignition, based on system pressure.
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