Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
Jack, my blades are sharp. My wit, however, is dull.
My zero turn will pull a wheelie. With no suspension however, it's kinda hard upon return to earth.
Jack, my blades are sharp. My wit, however, is dull.
My zero turn will pull a wheelie. With no suspension however, it's kinda hard upon return to earth.
That should work well.
Alister
.060 Over
Ok... so I'm a bit more educated now, thanks to all of you. Correct me if I'm wrong here:
It seems the TuneBoy is more capable (the secondary throttles, etc), but harder to use, thus the trouble in finding people who'll tune it.
The PCIII is easier to use, but will require a bit of mechanical work if I'm to get the most I can out of the bike. And it's a bit cheaper for me, too.
Well, maybe it'd help if I clarify what my capabilities are.
I used to be ASE Master-certified, and have extensive experience working with most major manufacturer's cars and light trucks. I've built some forty-odd engines, both fuel-injected and carburated... even a couple supercharged, so programming ECUs is nothing new or mysterious. Further, I completely understand the relation of the individual components to the performance of a given machine, and know what changes will result in gains, and at what cost.
It would seem the Tuneboy would be the path to go, right? Only... I kinda have to pay this bike off. But I don't like the thought of removing any component (except the cat-box) from my bike, either.
It seems the TuneBoy is more capable (the secondary throttles, etc), but harder to use, thus the trouble in finding people who'll tune it.
The PCIII is easier to use, but will require a bit of mechanical work if I'm to get the most I can out of the bike. And it's a bit cheaper for me, too.
Well, maybe it'd help if I clarify what my capabilities are.
I used to be ASE Master-certified, and have extensive experience working with most major manufacturer's cars and light trucks. I've built some forty-odd engines, both fuel-injected and carburated... even a couple supercharged, so programming ECUs is nothing new or mysterious. Further, I completely understand the relation of the individual components to the performance of a given machine, and know what changes will result in gains, and at what cost.
It would seem the Tuneboy would be the path to go, right? Only... I kinda have to pay this bike off. But I don't like the thought of removing any component (except the cat-box) from my bike, either.
Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
Alister:
With those credentials, you should know a couple of things:
1. There is no substitute for cubic inches...
2. The more you fu*k with it, the more unreliable and tempermental it gets.
I, myself, have never done squat to my R3. No pipes, still have the cat box, stock air filter, everything stock.
I played with my T100 quite a bit. I was pre-904 Wiseco Big Bore kit, so I just fly cut the head a few thousands, flowed it and of course polished the intake and exhaust, added Kehin CR's and a Polaris bell mouth and Uni Filter. I have a set of moderate lift and longer duration cams on the bench for this winter. Along with the cams will probably come sodium filled exhaust valves. I also had the headers custom fabricated and plasma coated and they terminate in '68 Meriden Pea Shooters. It runs quite well. As for reliability, the Bonneville was designed as a police bike by Bloor, at least the engine was so reliability wise, I'm most likely down on the scale a bit.
With those credentials, you should know a couple of things:
1. There is no substitute for cubic inches...
2. The more you fu*k with it, the more unreliable and tempermental it gets.
I, myself, have never done squat to my R3. No pipes, still have the cat box, stock air filter, everything stock.
I played with my T100 quite a bit. I was pre-904 Wiseco Big Bore kit, so I just fly cut the head a few thousands, flowed it and of course polished the intake and exhaust, added Kehin CR's and a Polaris bell mouth and Uni Filter. I have a set of moderate lift and longer duration cams on the bench for this winter. Along with the cams will probably come sodium filled exhaust valves. I also had the headers custom fabricated and plasma coated and they terminate in '68 Meriden Pea Shooters. It runs quite well. As for reliability, the Bonneville was designed as a police bike by Bloor, at least the engine was so reliability wise, I'm most likely down on the scale a bit.
The problem with tuning the ECU with Tuneboy is that the engine has to be off (but ignition on) when you download a map into the ECU. Something about the map being stored in flash memory. As you can imagine, this could be a long, iterative process on a dyno since there are 640 cells in each of 3 main fuel maps. Tuning the PCIII which is inline between the ECU and injectors is much more straightforward. I recommend downloading the Tuneboy software so you can see what the tune maps look like (there are high and low throttle fuel tables for each cyclinder, 4 ignition maps, the A/F map and a secondaries map. Also read the manuals and tutorials on how Tuneboy can be used on a DynoJet dyno.
RatBoy
Turbocharged
The number one problem with manually mapping Tuneboy is the following:
"Only nine rows can be selected at any time"
Therefore the tuner has to perform many manual steps in addition to the additional steps to commit the fuel trim tables to the TB Tune and then download the tune...
From what I have been told, the entire evolution can take between 8 and 10 hours to complete. At $60/hr for dyno time, that's a lot of money.
I'm paying $250 for a custom PC3 map. Below I've explained my reasoning for doing so.
TuneBoy:
Pros:
1) Remove secondary restrictions w/o having to remove throttle plates
2) Remove ignition retarding at the factory (remapping the I tables)
3) Correcting the 7% speedo error
4) Has lots of cool diagnostic functions much like the stealerships have
Cons:
1) Difficult to find a US Tuner that will use TB
2) Time-consuming process to tailor the tune to your specific setup
3) Expensive to get a tailored tune for your setup
PCIII:
Pros:
1) Easy to use and to tune using TuneLink and US Tuning shops
2) Custom tunes can be achieved relatively cheaply (@200-$250 USD)
Cons:
1) Cannot correct 7% speedo error
2) Cannot correct factory ignition retard
Conclusion:
It depends upon what's important to you and how much money is it worth to you to get the performance level that you want out of your R3.
I came to the conclusion that both provide benefits that I wanted so I'm going to be running both.
Others may think differently, but it's really a personal choice.
I hope that I have provided a complete picture for it was as complete a picture as I had when I was making my decisions. If I have misspoken or let something out, please let me know and I will amend my posting as requested/required.
"Only nine rows can be selected at any time"
Therefore the tuner has to perform many manual steps in addition to the additional steps to commit the fuel trim tables to the TB Tune and then download the tune...
From what I have been told, the entire evolution can take between 8 and 10 hours to complete. At $60/hr for dyno time, that's a lot of money.
I'm paying $250 for a custom PC3 map. Below I've explained my reasoning for doing so.
TuneBoy:
Pros:
1) Remove secondary restrictions w/o having to remove throttle plates
2) Remove ignition retarding at the factory (remapping the I tables)
3) Correcting the 7% speedo error
4) Has lots of cool diagnostic functions much like the stealerships have
Cons:
1) Difficult to find a US Tuner that will use TB
2) Time-consuming process to tailor the tune to your specific setup
3) Expensive to get a tailored tune for your setup
PCIII:
Pros:
1) Easy to use and to tune using TuneLink and US Tuning shops
2) Custom tunes can be achieved relatively cheaply (@200-$250 USD)
Cons:
1) Cannot correct 7% speedo error
2) Cannot correct factory ignition retard
Conclusion:
It depends upon what's important to you and how much money is it worth to you to get the performance level that you want out of your R3.
I came to the conclusion that both provide benefits that I wanted so I'm going to be running both.
Others may think differently, but it's really a personal choice.
I hope that I have provided a complete picture for it was as complete a picture as I had when I was making my decisions. If I have misspoken or let something out, please let me know and I will amend my posting as requested/required.
This seems like the best solution. Put in the best custom Tuneboy tune you can find and take it the rest of the way with the PCIII.
RatBoy
Turbocharged
I dropped off my bike at the tuner yesterday, and he ran a quick baseline....
Running triple K&Ns, and Jardines... with Wayne's Jardine with Triple Uni's tune...
131 rwhp, 138 ft-lbs...
I should be getting it back tonight or tomorrow, I'll post the finals...
Running triple K&Ns, and Jardines... with Wayne's Jardine with Triple Uni's tune...
131 rwhp, 138 ft-lbs...
I should be getting it back tonight or tomorrow, I'll post the finals...
Alister
.060 Over
RatBoy said:
Ultimately, I want the bike to be uniquely my own. In part through little add-ons and in part through my own custom work. Allow me to expand a bit: I have a real issue with people who claim to have "built their own ride" when, in fact, they only paid for it to be modified! Come hell or high water, I do it myself, thanks.
From the sounds of things, the Tuneboy is quite similar to some older SpeedPro (changed company names now, however... I can't remember who they're with now) full-authority ECUs, so that much I'm familiar with.
The issue is, there's not a dyno within reasonable distance, nor can I afford the time and money. May not be an issue, however, as the performance mods I plan on seem to have effective maps already out there. At least until I manage to wear the motor out, thus requiring an overhaul... and a few -dozen- liberties. Like non-Briggs-and-Stratton compression and a pair of hotter cams.
For now, I'll just let Big Twin tweak it a little for the pipes and cat delete, and the speedo error. See if I can't get 'em to eliminate that 7% power droop in first and second, too. Soon enough I'll invest in a Tuneboy and CO meter (next best thing to a dyno).
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