Losing Faith

[speedfrk]

Ok Warp I just did the cylinder compression test and all three read exactly 150PSI. So if 210-200 is within spec on a properly timed engine I'm thinking that at 150 across the board it means that my engine has jumped timing. I have a repair manual, but I'm not sure I'm ready to adjust the timing to bring it back in. The book looks like it's not that bad, but I'm confused about the crank timing mark. Can you truely see it from looking in the hole for the timing chain tensioner? Do you really need the special tool that locks your cam sprockets so they don't move? With the timing being off how hard will it be to locate the chain link that you can disconnect? These questions are why I'm a little leary. If I continue to ride my Rocket will it hurt anything? I'm talking mainly a possible three hour trip to Manasses to the next closest Triumph dealer.

 

[warp9.9]

Ok bud you opened the throttle bodies when you did the test didn't you? Just checking because if you did then I would agree th timing is most likley off. So in the first picture below there is no crankshaft in the engien but you can see the timing reference marks on the engine block at 0600 and 2400



Below is a picture taken with a scope because I have a blower cover and do not have the inspection plug like you have you can see the dot on the crank is lined up with the mark on the engine block casting.



SO seeing the mark is not the problem and if you have the special tool linging the cams up is not dificault. there is no chain link to seperate the chain is not made to take apart. You do need the tool and let me look around as I have one somewhere I can always ship you if you decide to undertake this task. Now if you do not want to and you want to ride her north I am guessing manassis (SP?) you can do that. What is happening in my opinion is there was to much slack in the chain on the non adjusting side of the chain which means the piston is on the down stroke further before the valveevent starts opening. This means the valve is open longer and with low compression pistons there is not as much squeeze going up.This lower cranking pressure. The only other thing could be bent valves but IMO you have to much compression for that and you not hearing it. Now I understand your not getting along with D&D and they should make this right if they lifted the cams. But if they did not and it jumped on the dyno there usually is some paper work relieving tuners of liability on dynos. Some would still work with you but in all reality once the liability is signed they do not have to. There is a possibilty that Wayne Tripp was right and the tensioner let loose and allowed the timing to jump. this does happen even when riding down the road. This is why I modified my auto tensioner with a fail safe safety. Now I did a search and there is a dealer listed in YorkTown 757-989-5000 you might want to give them a call as they are closer to Suffolk.

 

[Battersea]

I've been thinking about your tensioner mod for a while now Scott and having read this topic I realise its time to stop thinking and just get on with it.

I seem to remember you posting a drawing and instruction, do you have the info handy for posting again or could you point me to the original post please?

 

[speedfrk]

Warp/Scott, The dealership in Yorktown doesn't have the best of reputations. They have been a Ducatti dealership for years and it now appears they have picked up Triumph. About your tensioner mod. Would you be willing to do the mod on one for me? I'd of course pay you for your time. To make things easier I'm thinking that getting a new one to do this on would be the best way. If you are up for this I could send you the money via paypal. I'm thinking I'd need a new gasket and maybe even a new spacer unless my old one can be reused. I've decided I'm going to trailer my bike up to Manassas as soon as I can line up a trailer unless you'd still want to help tackle this during Columbus Day week? Do you have the the cam sprocket tool? I'm thinking a new cam cover seal as well as 9 new twin lip seals will be needed as well? You asked me a while back what my rate was in the Navy. I was a Boiler Technician for my first nine years and a Gas Turbine Technician(Mechanical) for my last eleven years before I retired in 2002. If we could set something up it would be easier to talk to you on the phone vise doing the messaging thing in here. Thanks again for all your help, Greg.

 

[speedfrk]

Warp/Scott, I had a long talk with Triumph America today. They stated with compression ratio of 8.7:1 that the cylinder pressure should be around 150PSI(they said that before I told then what my numbers were). They were really nice and as helpful as they could be and when I gave them the whole story they sympothized with my situation. At the end the guy on the phone(Greg) said that it sounds as if something is wrong with the tune, but the only way to know what it is is to get it back on a dyno to see what is going on. In order to recreate where I started from the Triumph TORS tune has to go back into the ECU and the PCIII put back on. I asked Greg if they had a shop at the home office in Atlanta, but it closed down a year ago. I asked that because talking to someone at work he said that he didn't think I'd find a shop willing to take this situation on and see it through when some other shop screwed it up in the first place and I'm now in over my head and I need to just send it in to the home office(shop). When I asked who the next closest dealership to me is Greg said Redline Motorsports in Yorktown, but Ray Price in Raleigh NC has in Triumph's opinion the one of the best technicians in the country. I thanked Greg and that was that. I tossed it around a bit and decided to call Redline to get a feel for them and after laying it all out, but leaving most of the personal issues out they said that I needed to bring it in. I asked them if they would see it through no matter what was going on they said that they would and that the owner has been figuring out tuning issues on all makes of bikes for years. They said they even have folks mailing in there ECU's from all over. I think I've decided that is where my bike is headed. I'm not riding it there. I'm afraid at this point with my luck I might end up burning a valve, or a hole in a piston. I'd still like to get a chain tensioner with your mod done if possible.

 

[warp9.9]

Ok here is I right up I did on the tech site for Peter aka Pedro in Oz keep in mind when I wrote this I was on Oxycotin and Valium it was right after I had the metal plate, screws and lubrum studs installed in my shoulder. So I was bored and could only do a little wrenching.

The Cam chain tensioner on our Bikes is of week design. I have heard stories of failure on the rocket as well as other Triumph Triples. Basically the auto adjust feature IMO must have to small of teeth on the ratchet retention piece and therefore weak. There is a risk of losing the ratchet grip and then the tension on the chain. Once this happens the lose chain beats the chit out of the cam chain guides to a point of fracturing them. The worst case scenario the chain jumps gear teeth and allows the valves to come in contact with the pistons causing catastrophic failure of the head and engine. Why Triumph has not warned people of this or redesigned the auto tensioner is beyond me. I have seen this personally on three times on the R3 engine in which one of them bent every valve in the head. With the assistance of Art and Bob of Carpenter Racing I was able to design a modification of the stock auto tensioner on our bikes. This modification allows the tensioner to still work as designed by Triumph along with a safety mechanism to keep the tensioner from allowing slack to develop in the chain should it fail. This modification can be easily made to your bike while the tension is still on the chain. A word of caution to all While doing this modification do not turn the engine over or start it until the tensioner is installed back in the bike or loss of timing will occur requiring pulling the cam cover and exposing the lower timing gear to reset the timing on the bike. I believe this is important and would do it to every bike whether stock or modified. But the modified bikes using higher lift cams will have higher risk of valve piston collision.
Here is the instructions I sent out to Peter aka Pedro who I think might have completed it and can make suggestions as my instructions might not be clear. If anyone has questions do not hesitate to ask.
Ok Peter here is the tensioner modification.
On the left side of the picture you will see the stock condition of the parts and on the right side the modified parts. This is so easy it is just funny. First pull your center nut out of the bike slowly so you do not disturb the adjustment of the ratchet piston as you don't want to lose your chain tension. Second remove spring from centre nut. You will notice a brass piece on the dowel pin I will tell you what my opinion is about why it is there but it does make the spring compress a little more and it is about .120" thick and pressed on the dowel pin. second you must figure out how you are going to pull the dowel pin and brass spacer out of the tension centre nut its a little work as it is pressed into the centre nut. I set it up in an engine lathe and drilled a small hole in from the front and use a small pin punch but I am a machinist and lathe might not be available to you. So you might try heating it up so the centre nut expands and the chill just the pin and she might fall out. Or put the pin end in a vise and heat the centre nut up and using a soft brass drift and ball peen hammer knock the nut off the pin. If you take it to a machine shop do not drill a larger hole in then the tap drill size of the bolt you are going to use. I used a .201 drill as it is the tap drill size for the 1/4-20-UNC bolt. If you can get American bolts it will be the largest you can get into the spring, ideally a 7mm bolt would be great but I do not know if it is a standard bolt I could not find one over her so it would have had to be 6mm. Anyway I chose the 1/4 diameter thread as I wanted as large as possible shank for if the tensioner failed. Course threads Unified National Course (UNC). Bolt length was 2.5 inch shank and mine has the 9 mm spacer plug in it. If your tensioner don't you will need a 3.00" stud. Material is stainless so it does not rust. I cut the head off it and you can use a die to put a little more threads if needed I was lucky but when the chain stretches I will have to get a longer one. After tap drilling centre nut thread with tap and use cutting oil or engine oil when threading. Clean all oil and chips up afterwards. Then you either have to use a spacer the thickness of the brace spacer .120" to duplicate spring compression/tension. Assemble bolt into centre nut slide on space and then spring. Insert into tensioner body and tighten main tensioner centre nut with the copper crush washer installed. Then lightly turn stud till it hit bottom of piston back of just a little and install lock nut. The reason you back of slightly (not even 1/8 turn is so when tightening lock nut it does not push stud up tight and take pressure off the ratchet pawl. Remember you want the tensioner to work like the bolt was not there.

This mod works well and as the original tensioner was designed the only thing you notice is the extra nuts on the tensioning centre nut. You just simply unlock the nuts so you can freely screw the bolt until it contacts the bottom of the tensioner piston finger tight only back it off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and then double lock it and install the acorn nut to cover the bolt threads (cosmetics). Keep in mind this is never used to force any adjustment of the tensioner it is merely a fail safe to keep it from releasing allowing the engine to jump timing.
Below is a picture with the original centre nut with guide pin installed and the other components along with the modification parts





Below is a picture of the center nut with the modified stud installed in the OEM spring



Below is a picture of it installed in the bike with a stainless acorn nut for cosmetic coverage




Now I can tell you that Triumph will not do this for you and will not acknowledge any possible issues with the tensioner letting loose not even on the speed tripples and the sprints which use the same tensioner.

The neet thing about this mod is you can do it without taking the bike apart as long as you do not atempt to run it or turn it over while you have the center nut out. The only thing that might change it the length of the stud depending on whether you have the spacer in the bottom of the tensioner or not. I am at work now and have to get back to making my rounds I will check back later to answer any questions needed.

 

[Idaho Red Rocket 3]

Warp is right. Dealers know nuts and bolts on and off. That is about it. The "experts" are here. We live, eat, breath Rockets. I have been "training" my dealer about the Rockets since they got their Triumph dealership a year ago.

 

[warp9.9]

I do not blame the dealers as they are not allowed to experiment. This is what holds modifications and resulting parts changes back from ever coming to life. No one likes to admit there is a problem with the design on something. That fact is the design is good it just needs some additions. This tensioner is used in the 1050 motor and also fails on occasion in it. Taking in mind the OEM springs are weak one must conclude some modifications need to be done. I myself did it first because of boost pressure and further modifications to the cam chain guide as the heavy duty springs were added to the valve/head system which seemed to amplify the problem and the resulting fix. Thos who stay NA and OEM valve springs need only modify the center nut for safety. those that go down the road I have need a wee bit more.

 

[speedfrk]

Well as of October 5th my Rocket is at Redline Motorsports in Yorktown. They called me on the 8th and told me that after running a full diagnostic check of my whole bike they found nothing mechanically, or electrically/eletronic wrong. They are first going to do a dyno run on their eddy current dyno with the bike as is. Then after throwing in a set of irridium plugs(my decision) and putting back on the PCIII with the map the last dealership programmed in do another dyno run. Lastly they will do a completely new custom map on the dyno and will compare all the results to show me where I started from and the progression to finally(hopefully) get to the state in which my bike is performing correctly with the mods currently installed. I should be getting a phone call around Wednesday to come in and pick her up. Hopefully this month long nightmare will finally be over. If this all goes well I will never go to a shop for a custom map that doesn't have an eddy current dyno for use with a power commander. Better yet in the future what ever my motocycle purchase has as far as performance goes is how it stays. I'm now thinking their might be a slightly used Moto Guzzi California Tour somewhere in my future as possibly my last bike. That will really be off the beaten path(at least in my area).

 

[speedfrk]

My bike is finally home as of last Friday. To make a long story short it's now running with good power. The tune in the ECU was fubar and there never was a tune in in the PCIII(I really got taken on that one by the original dealer I went to so the dyno numbers they gave me were bogus). My numbers are now 146/157. Even though there is a bump in power over stock I guess I was expecting more in the seat of the pants. Don't get wrong it's smooth, but I'm thinking my TORS are holding me back. It will stay as is. Going forward the only money to be spent on this bike will be for maintenance. My head is hard, but I've learned my lessson on this one.