Losing Faith

[STRIPES]

First we need to figure out if they changed any shims. You stated they pulled the cam cover but you have to just to check the clearances. Look at your bill an dsee if you got charged for any shims. It seems weird that Brian and Jerry acted like this but never the less we need to figure out if they pulled the cams because if not then your problem is elsewhere. if so no amount of tuning is going to make the cam/crank timing change back to what it is supposed to be.
Hopfully I can get to Norfolk during the Columbus Holliday week. If they did not pull the cams we can try a few things with soem tunes and check some othe rimportant things like the low tension leads going to the coils to make sure you have good connections some times its the simple things.

Now in your case it does not really matter whether you use a PCIII or PCV although the PCV is just the PCIII and multiport hub with various connections built right in. and does have a better rpm break up range to tune with. The thing is some dealers do not realise the 09 Rockets still have the same ecu as the older one (not talking about the touring) therfore when they look up a older bike it steers them towards PCIII which is what they know anyway. People on these sites know different but not every Dealer realy spends time on the sites.

I have an extra PC3 for almost free.

 

[speedfrk]

I contactedWayne Tripp today via e-mail and he responded and said do a compression test before you do anything else. That test will rule out/in a few things. He also said to look at the cam sproket timing marks with number one piston at top dead center to make sure your timing marks are aligned. I appreciate everyones input. Unless I missed something I believe I stated what was done to my bike and where it stands now. Folks are right in that no amount of tuning with either Tune ECU, or a PCIII/V is going to solve anything until I find out why my bike has lost power.

 

[Dawg68]

That's why I do my own work. I figure I can fug it up myself for nothing instead of paying someone else to do it.

I've worked in the mechanical field for over 25 years now and I have to agree with Rocket Scientist. Most of the time, with the manual, proper tools and a little understanding you can actually accomplish quite a bit on your own....with success. There are times when you will have to take it in and unfortunately you are subject to the level of currently employed competence.....at a premium. For me, I will have access to only two dealerships, 3 hours a part to go for assistance. Other than that its a days travel. Add to that the fact that these two dealers sell maybe 4 or 5 Rockets a year, how much experience/knowledge do these mechanics actually have when it comes to the Rocket....or engines in general. That bothers me quite a bit.....that said, I knew that when I bought into the Rocket. That's where this forum comes in. The amount of knowledge contained in the heads of Rocket owners is astounding. Now you add that to the ability to read the maintenance manual and the dexterity with some tools.....I'll fix or as mentioned earlier...fug it up myself. In the end it's a machine......it can be fixed.

 

[speedfrk]

I'd really like to be the only one wrenching on my bike, but I curently don't have all the tools neded to do the job right and as I get older my desire to turn wrenches isn't what it used to be. I did that for 20 years in the navy and pretty much have my belly full. Having said that it may in the end come down to me just taking over due to the lack of competence here locally. I hope that isn't the case, but these sort of things are what you are seeing in many areas of expertise across the country. I'm still holding out hope that even if I have to travel I'll find a shop who is both competent and professional. Until this incident I had both where I was doing my business for seven years with the same owner and the same maechanic.

 

[speedfrk]

Warp, I looked at my bill and I was charged for a valve cover gasket and nine seals($40.77), but nothing that specifically says shims. My gut tells me if nothing else the valve cover gasket means they pulled the cams. I mean why else would you replace that gasket? If I don't get this all ironed out by Colombus Day I'd more than welcome any and all help you would be willing to provide. Thank you.

 

[warp9.9]

in order to

Warp, I looked at my bill and I was charged for a valve cover gasket and nine seals($40.77), but nothing that specifically says shims. My gut tells me if nothing else the valve cover gasket means they pulled the cams. I mean why else would you replace that gasket? If I don't get this all ironed out by Colombus Day I'd more than welcome any and all help you would be willing to provide. Thank you.

check the clearances between the cams and the shim buckets you have to pull the cam cover, the seals are the ones that fit under the cam cover bolt heads so renewing them is always a good idea as the rubber does harden with miles. That being said how long did they have the bike in for the work? pulling the cams and changing shims along with rechecking is not a quick job. especially if you road her up to Norfolk a hot bike is hard to work on plus clearances need to be check on a cool engine so the valve stems have not exspanded. On my 06 they did the 20,000 check up (Jerry that is) and no shims needed to be changed the only problem they had was bending the fuel level float when they changed the filter which they corrected immediately.
So if you turned wrenches as a squid you must have either been a snipe or something to do with aircraft ?

I was a MR

 

[speedfrk]

Warp, They had the bike for days as they had to wait untill I got all the filters in(when they started getting indignant with me they had me order the filters since I'd already researched where they were available from). If they did the lash check and no shims were required then I'm back to something else Wayne Tripp stated "It is not usual for R3 engines to jump timing, but this can happen if the dyno operator repeatedly chops the throttle at the end of a pull on an inertia dyno". This may have happened at the end of the last pull and given the fact that no one at D&D test rides a bike that has been dyno'd they wouldn't know whether, or not a bike has jumped timing. I'm pretty set at doing a compression test first followed by a timing check, and maybe also check the valve lash. I'm having trouble understanding why in the heck you need to keep checking the valve lash every 10,000 miles. Seems more like a Triumph money grab to me.

 

[warp9.9]

Warp, They had the bike for days as they had to wait untill I got all the filters in(when they started getting indignant with me they had me order the filters since I'd already researched where they were available from). If they did the lash check and no shims were required then I'm back to something else Wayne Tripp stated "It is not usual for R3 engines to jump timing, but this can happen if the dyno operator repeatedly chops the throttle at the end of a pull on an inertia dyno". This may have happened at the end of the last pull and given the fact that no one at D&D test rides a bike that has been dyno'd they wouldn't know whether, or not a bike has jumped timing. I'm pretty set at doing a compression test first followed by a timing check, and maybe also check the valve lash. I'm having trouble understanding why in the heck you need to keep checking the valve lash every 10,000 miles. Seems more like a Triumph money grab to me.

Wayne is right as the auto tensioner can let loose and jump time. If the bike is running and you jumped time your lucky you did not pound the valves against the pistons. This is why I did my modification to the auto tensioner to eliminate possible failures. When you do the compression check make sure you hold the throttle wide open on each cylinder or it will be low. hopefully you will see around 200 psi. Also look for anything with say 20% difference between the cylinders. I am not sure if Wayne mentioned a leak down test but if the compressuion looks weird you should check you shim clearance again any large amount over OEM specs will mean the valve is not closing (possibly bent). I have seen bent oines that just did not shut and some that hit so hard it broke some of the exhaust valve heads off. Of course your is still running so I would not expect the worse. The compression test will also allow you to make sure all the spoark plugs are seated as you never know if someone gets in a hurry.

 

[speedfrk]

Warp, Why do you need to hold the throttle wide open? My pea brain tells me that as you hit the start button all you are looking for is the maximum cylinder pressure at TDC. I'm thinking if the compression values are low, but it's consistant across all thre cylinders then it's the timing, but if you have a value on just one cylinder that is out of spec then you have to start where the issue is in just that one cylinder. I'm hoping that it's not a valve issue because at 19,xxx miles I'd hate to have to have the head reworked(I'm not about to start lapping in a new valve myself). There seems to be a head issue pattern with this bike. First the head gasket leaked, then the tensioner hung up between two pawls for a bit, and now this. If there is a valve problem in the end this may all be an expensive blessing in
disguise in that I'd end up with a reworked head, new tensioner, and most likely I'd get a new chain and new guides just so I'd be starting with an all new valve train. I know they make drugs for what I have, but my nature is to leave nothing to chance.Thanks again for all your input.

 

[warp9.9]

Warp, Why do you need to hold the throttle wide open? My pea brain tells me that as you hit the start button all you are looking for is the maximum cylinder pressure at TDC. I'm thinking if the compression values are low, but it's consistant across all thre cylinders then it's the timing, but if you have a value on just one cylinder that is out of spec then you have to start where the issue is in just that one cylinder. I'm hoping that it's not a valve issue because at 19,xxx miles I'd hate to have to have the head reworked(I'm not about to start lapping in a new valve myself). There seems to be a head issue pattern with this bike. First the head gasket leaked, then the tensioner hung up between two pawls for a bit, and now this. If there is a valve problem in the end this may all be an expensive blessing in
disguise in that I'd end up with a reworked head, new tensioner, and most likely I'd get a new chain and new guides just so I'd be starting with an all new valve train. I know they make drugs for what I have, but my nature is to leave nothing to chance.Thanks again for all your input.

Why open the throttles well simply explained you can be off three teeth on the crank gear and still have the engine run great you just loose power from the wrong valve event. but you will most likely loose over all maximum compression in every cyclinder. a stock Rocket will be somewhere around 200 to 210 psi you need to know your max compression to be able to make a judgement as to whether the valve event has changed any. Just hold the throttle wide open before you hit the starter button and read the pressure.