Just was Dyno'ed; they say I'm too lean

Just curious, then why do they have values to 100% TP?

That I cannot be sure about, I can only say how it actually works and responds to changes.

It is possible the software is written to allow the future use of a wideband Lambda sensor, or is the same as other Keihin ECUs that use a wideband sensor. Or for some other reason.
 

The algorithm for how fuel is calculated - the volume specified in the fuel table divided by the corresponding value in the A/F table - comes form Wayne at Tuneboy as does the association between the value of 14.57 in the A/F table and the ECU going into closed loop. Are you saying this is all bullcrap? If so, what do the values in the fuel tables represent and how does the ECU determine how much fuel to supply when it's not in closed loop or when the O2 sensor has been disabled?
 
Dougl,
No, not BS, but only affecting a small range of mixture readings and settings in the table cells - all limited by the operation and range of the narrowband sensor. Once out of its range, the table does nothing and is not referenced by the ECU.

I recommend that you not take anyone's word as gospel on an internet forum. Especially not mine.
Do your own research and testing. Answer you own questions.

Please take some time to learn how Lambda sensors operate - narrowband and wideband (UEGO and LSU).

Understand how the different types operate, what their limitations are, what stoichiometric ratio means and how this is measured in a test engine. Learn about test engines, and look at the data sheets for Lambda sensors, and you will see that they are calibrated by the manufacturers to Lambda 1 (stoichiometric) = AFR 14.57:1 for pump fuels. Then learn how operation and design of engines, as well as different fuels can play into the above.

Then take some time to learn about EFI closed loop operation strategies using Lambda sensors of different types. Especially how this is done in the Keihin ECU with its narrowband sensor.

Much, if not all of this, is available today with a few internet searches and some time spend reading a few books.

I highly recommend spending some time working/testing with your bike on a dyno, while changing all the different tables - especially the AF table - testing actual operation and interaction of tables. You can spend some time working with other bikes, and with aftermarket engine management systems as well. This will provide knowledge about how different systems and engines operate.

Then you will be able to answer your own questions and not rely on someone else's word.
 
Dougl,
No, not BS, but only affecting a small range of mixture readings and settings in the table cells - all limited by the operation and range of the narrowband sensor. Once out of its range, the table does nothing and is not referenced by the ECU.

I have the O2 sensor disconnected from the ECU and the O2 sensor box unchecked in Tuneboy so presumably it's not going into closed loop. I could simply change all the values in the A/F table to zero and see what happens.
 
I thought that putting all zero values in the A/F table was a bit extreme so I changed all the values to about 8. This should increase all the fuel delivery by at least 50%, according to Tuneboy. I warmed up the bike. The O2 sensor is disconnected,. I downloaded the tune. It started right up, idled fine and ran OK revving to 5000 rpm in neutral. I drove it up and down the street, winding it out. I could see no difference from my normal tune. So, I would think A/F settings of 8 would have an effect but it didn't. So I lowered the A/F values to 0.05 to zero in all cells. Again, I started the bike, it idled fine and revved to 6000 rpm with no sputters. Then I put it in 1st and revved it with the clutch in - again no sputters.

Tuneboy says that the values in the fuel tables are in units of mg of air and are converted to mg of fuel by the ratios in the A/F table. If the ECU is not using the values in the A/F table to calculate fuel, how is it doing it?
 
Tuneboy says that the values in the fuel tables are in units of mg of air and are converted to mg of fuel by the ratios in the A/F table. If the ECU is not using the values in the A/F table to calculate fuel, how is it doing it?

In the F and L tables, in mg of air.

One more time... the AF table is only related to the Lambda sensor, and its narrow range.
 
If the F and L tables are mg of air, then how does the ECU know how much fuel to add?

Wayne - I think I can speak for Doug too, we aren't trying to be arguementative, just trying to learn something.
 
If the F and L tables are mg of air, then how does the ECU know how much fuel to add?

Wayne - I think I can speak for Doug too, we aren't trying to be arguementative, just trying to learn something.

Yeah, this is all academic as far as I'm concerned. My bike has run great since I got it.

It really surprised me that changing the A/F table did nothing - but if the fuel tables have units of mg AIR then the ECU has to be using some value for the AIR/FUEL to calculate FUEL.
 
You are getting all wrapped up in the "mg of air" units. The ECU uses a conversion factor to relate the numbers in the F and L tables to an injector on-time. so, just think of the numbers in the cells in each fuel table as injector pulse units that relate to a specific amount of time that the injector is open.

Keep it simple. If the engine needs/wants more fuel, increase the numbers in the right cells, of the correct tables, to give it more fuel.
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Pig9r and Dougl, you (and a few lurkers) are asking for details that would (and do) fill several large books and many classroom hours that some companies charge very good money to teach. An internet forum is far from a good medium to substitute for the basic fundamentals of engine management operation and experience with interface software of different types.

Due to many reasons, I may not be the best one to explain these systems to the neophyte. Perhaps others here can add what I leave out.

Be aware that the language used can be confusing - there are many terms for the same things, and some of the same terms can be used for different meanings. Much is determined by what engines, engine management you use most often, and even the part of the world you live in. Get a bunch of experienced engine builders and calibrators from around the world in the same room, and you will see what I mean.

But you need a solid understanding of engines, and how each sensor operates. The sensors and ECU chip used will limit what can and cannot be done. From this you can build an understanding of how to effectively use different sensors to control the engine in a smooth way that gives best results. Best results will be determined by what you are trying to accomplish, and what requirements limit each other.


If your brain is not already cramping, here are a few starting ponts:

Classes, and a decent forum - EFI 101

Books by Greg Banish (EFI University instructor):
Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems
Engine Management: Advanced Tuning

Adam Wade:
Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook
(basics on sensors and simply motorcycle systems)

If you are not knowledgeable on engines and what makes them tic, start with A. Graham Bell's books.

There are some older texts by Charles Fayette Taylor and Edward F. Obert that can still be found, and will help as well.

You will also need a basic understanding of fuels and fuel systems. I can give a long list here, but start with a few internet searches - just watch what is put out on forums, some of it is flat wrong.


And there is no replacement for hands-on experience with a bike on a dyno. The type of dyno and the data collected can vary. Some are better than others, but it all depends on the knowledge and experience of the operator.
 
Without giving a long description of the evolution of fuel injection and how this is evolving into better engine management, I will try to explain a few fundamentals.

EFI basics:
[Highly oversimplified, But this might help to understand a few details. You really need to perform you own research into how different engine management systems, and different interface software suites are configured and operate.]

The software in the ECU is not like the software we use to alter the mapping. The ECU software is very basic code that must accomplish as much as possible, as quickly as possible, with a limited amount of space. We interface with this software with products like TuneEdit and TuneECU. In the old days, you had to remove the chip, flash it with light to blank it, and then load an altered map. Times, equipment, software, etc. are constantly evolving.

The software used for adjusting the software in the ECU (in this case TuneEdit or TuneECU) can be set up in many different configurations - VE (volumetric efficiency), estimated air flow into the cylinder, basic injector units of on-time (pulse units relating to time), etc. It really doesn't matter which way the software is configured other than for determining how easy it is to understand and operate for the end user. I swear some make their software difficult just to be different from everyone else.

You can/will have many different fuel tables. You will start with basic Alpha-n using throttle position over rpm. Then add acceleration compensation - normally manifold air pressure (MAP) over rpm. If it is a plenum intake manifold, you might add mass air flow (MAF) for good low rpm resolution (smooth operation at low throttle openings). If it is an individual throttle body (ITB) system like a bike or some BMW car engines, you will likely use MAP for low rpm resolution and switch over to Alpha-n at higher rpm where manifold vacuum is low. Then add offset tables for inlet air temp, engine temp, barometric pressure, etc., etc. This now gives us a speed density system.

If you want to add a Lambda sensor to allow corrections by the ECU for idle and cruise to meet tighter emissions standards you use a narrow band Lambda sensor. If you want to operate in a wider range of closed loop conditions, you use a wider range Lambda sensor. Some automotive OEMs use very wide range Lambda sensors like the Bosch LSU 4.9 or some of the NTK units. But close loop operation is still a narrow range of total operating conditions simply because when accelerating, there is a lag between the changing engine speed and the time it takes for residual oxygen in the exhaust gases to make it to the Lambda sensor. There are also many limitations to using Lambda sensors for performance tuning, but this is not a good time to get into this.

You can even use a couple of tables that "learn" the difference between what the mapping is set at, and the results from the Lambda sensor when in closed loop. This will vary engine to engine, and how and where the engine is used. Then the ECU writes corrections that offset the main fueling tables. Sometimes these are called "adaptive" trim tables, and can be both long and short term in their offsets.


You have a total of 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation (two rotations of the crank in a four-stroke engine) to fire an injector. The diameter and number of teeth on the crank sensor help to set the resolution/accuracy. More teeth and larger diameters are needed for good accuracy at higher rpm. The ECU uses the known number of teeth to continuously correct where it is in relation to crank degrees, and then resets the count when it sees either missing teeth or a much stronger magnetic signal. OEM system are a bare minimum based on economics, not best results.

There two ways to configure injector timing in relation to absolute crankshaft degrees :
1. From the start of the injector pulse. You add or subtract on-time to the beginning of the pulse with a set off point.
2. From the end of the injector pulse (most common). You add or subtract on-time to the end of the pulse with a set on point.
Then you have latency issues with electronics and software, and lag times from the magnets and tip design of the injector, that reduce the actual time the injector is open, and how long it takes to get to fully open.

The amount, pattern, angle, and timing of the injector spray affects the way the fuel mixes with air and is distributed in the cylinder [search for stratified charge], and if/how much makes it unburned into the exhaust at different throttle openings (loads) and engine speeds.


Now, you take the engine design and calculate the fuel demand based on theoretical output across all engine speeds and throttle openings. For the OEMs, this is usually done by someone called a calibrator. This is done to configure a base map in the ECU that will start up and run. From here, a dyno is used to dial in the mapping for all the different requirements that the OEMs must meet - noise and exhaust gas emissions, fuel consumption, output, transient response, etc., etc. and to actually map for unforeseen pulse tuning and engine demand issues.

Some OEM calibrators then take the vehicle for road testing at varying atmospheric conditions and altitudes, and the mapping and sensor offsets are adjusted accordingly. Not all OEMs can afford to do this, and some ECUs are simply not as "smart", or configured well enough, to compensate for all operating conditions at different altitudes, air temps, air pressures, and humidity levels. For instance, Triumph does not calibrate any of the Keihin equipped bikes well for temps below 50 degrees F.

From here the vehicle is released to the consumer who may run it in completely stock formation, or start changing things. The further the engine varies from stock, the more it requires additional changes to the mapping.

Somewhere along the line a smart guy (or gal) comes along and decides that they want to see how the ECU software operates and how to change it. He pulls the software code out of the ECU and looks at how different parts of it alter different systems in the ECU. He writes some software that makes it easier to alter these different parts of the ECU coding and sets up this software in a manner that makes sense to him.


The software we use to interface with the ECU can be configured in many ways - all based on the whims of the code geek that writes it. Some of these smart guys have more understanding of what makes this software easier to use in relation to the engine for the gearheads and tuners (I detest that term). Some do not.

[If you have seen some of the early chip burning and interface software that was used in the past, you might be tempted to beat some code geeks viciously about the head and neck with a large blunt instrument. This goes for some of the race ECU software used up to just a couple of years ago, as well. The early Motec software could easily drive someone to violence.]

All that matters is that the end user can adjust the tables in the interface software in a manner that allows them to give the engine what it wants for their needs - output, response, fuel consumption, emissions, etc. And each interface software package tends to call the same things by different names, arrange it in different places, and even set up the tables in varying ways. It is up to the end user to understand how the engine and engine management operate. Then learn to get the best results from the interface software.

Enough technical BS, I am going for a ride.