HD Seeking Federal Bank Bailout Funds

scowherd said:

I think the way the auto bailout is structured does absolutely nothing to help the economy. The money is being used to pay current debt and cover bad loans. It is not being spent on anything new. They should have taken the bailout money and put it in a buy American campaign. for example ever American made car purchased in 2009 the owner would receive a gov sponsored discount on the product purchased. this would promote spending increase production and keep people employed. As it stands we gave failing companies operating capital when they have been losing market share for years. The American auto industry need do something to increase their market share or they are doomed with or without bailout money. I have a crazy thought lift the embargo on Cuba they haven’t had any American cars in years plus it would allow us to indulge in a few fine smokes.

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I quit smoking 1-01-09. A fine Cuban Cigar would still be nice however. Somehow, I can't picture Cubans buying American cars. They can't afford them. Their economy is in a shambles. Cuba has degenerated to a low ranking 3rd. world economy...much like the owners of this country would like us to become.

Jamie said:

Regardless, 1'100 HD employees are getting the boot as this being typed-up . Three production facilities are also going to be shut down (source:Bloomberg)

Jamie

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TDragger's Bloomberg report is also interesting. Now, will someone please explain to me what possessed Willie G and his henchmen to purchase MV and their outta sight unsecured debt just prior to the fall of the American economy...just, JUST prior, like within a 90 day time frame. The handwriting was on the wall then. HD knew it was in serious trouble as it's debt to profit ratio was faltering but yet went ahead and capitalized MV. I say let 'em go down. Even John Bloor is light years smarter than Willie G. HD is an ancient American Icon caught securely in the jaws of death between a faltering economy and the unyielding power of the EPA.

HD, like Chrysler, has outlived it's profitability and no amount of tax dollar infusion is going to change the final outcome. It's past time to let it go.

HD as well as the not so big 3 have the same problem to deal with that severely hurts the bottom line and that's the union legacy cost scenario.

Now, we all know that HD is never going to build a necessary motor vehicle. They are always going to build a luxury item so let's just discard them from the equation.

The auto manufacturers need to divest themselves from the UAW one way or another. Gettlefinger knows that which is why he's looking to meet with Obama to renegotiate the terms of the bridge loan because as he says, 'the terms aren't reasonable'. On the contrary, the terms are quite reasonable when the end game is a non-union working environment.

If, the automakers can't divest themselves from the UAW and limit their legacy cost commitment, they will never be viable and they will be a continuous drain on the dollars of the American people. It's past time for Gettlefinger and his regime to exit the American workplace. Ron knows that but there is no way he can tell his constituents the truth.

The Unions got us to where we are today in terms of safe working environment and benefit packages. Without unions and collective bargaining, we'd all be working for 3 dollars a day, no benefits and no retirement but the unions have outlived their benefits to the American workers. It's time to go.

It's all gonna be real ugly. Reality, especially the reality of lower wages and curtailment of benefit packages, vacation time and ancillary perks that are taken for granted, but severely effect a manufacturers bottom line will be very hard for a typical blue collar employee to swallow but personally, I'd rather swallow that bitter pill over losing my job entirely and the prospect of never being employed gainfully again...which is exactly what the scenario will play out as, if we continue on the present tack.

Ride my Pride

Yes and no, Flip. Harley's blue collars have been dedicated and loyal to the point of having their employer's name tattoed on their forearms, (I know... you all know, it reads like a cliché), to the point of having their wives wear Harley-branded panties and their kids sleeping on Screamin' Eagle pillows, to the point of humbly putting their savings at stake for a remote chance to be registered on CVO's waiting list when reaching assembly line supervisor grade .

"Not just a job, a commitment" as a distressed US friend of mine just PM'd me.

Were it not for this simply humane and vaguley romantic and terribly endangered blue collar background, yes, I'd rather bawl Harley out than bail it out

Jamie

your opinions on this
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/business/worldbusiness/23sweden.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html?ref=worldbusiness

Jamie:

It's all moot however. If you can't sell the product due to whatever circumstances, price, quality, availability, whatever, then the bottom line is there is no bottom line.

HD made some really bad choices. MV was a bad choice. Poor financing practice to bolster the bottom line was a bad choice. Putting your head in the sand and ignoring the mandates of big brother was a bad choice. Too many bad choices in an economic downturn equals liquidation, and no, they don't deserve a government bailout any more than the automalkers do or that the financial whores of Wall Street did. When you keep disbursing money at the rate the Fed is, it makes the money worth so little that at some point inflation is going to become a runaway train and God help us all at that point.

Take a look at Caterpillar. You and I both know the scenario but they did what they had to do to survive and they did it without going to the government and asking for a handout. It hurt, but it got handled. it wasn't pretty but then, neither is Bear Stearns or AIG or all the money piled on the National Debt that our kids and their kids will be shackled with. You just can't make it disappear. It's always going to be there, long after the businesses that benefited from the money cease to exist. It's like paying on an installmenmt loan that never ends. What a travesty.

It's all about surviving and doing it within parameters you can attain without going outside for capital infusions because those capital infusions are only a stop gap cure to the underlying problems.

So long as the government sees fit to apply bandages to staunch the bleeding, rather than let the victim terminate and then start over...and learn from the mistakes, it's not going to get better. It's going to get worse.

Remember one thing. Today is the 'good old days'.

You make some excellent points. I agree with most of what you are saying. I don't like the bailout either, yet at the same time letting the auto industry fail doesn't just hurt them. All the companies and people that rely on it for their businesses will fail with them, many of which have not done anything wrong and have had good business plans and good management. I would like to see a way that we could let them fail without destroying all the supporting industries. When the UAW refused to take a pay cut to the same wages as non-union auto workers I had no sympathy for them any longer. I worry about the others. Like the rest of the manufacturers, if Harley can't keep up let them go also. I hate to see it go, (I have stock) but so many other motorcycle companies have gone before with no help from the govt. Look at Indian. Died because the govt bought so many Harleys during the war and so few Indians. Triumph is a good example of what can be done with the right management. Yes they cut production, and yes they shrunk so small most people in this country didn't know they still existed until the early 90's but they put out new motorcycles every year (except during WWI and WWII) for consumers every year except the two it took to move the plant to Hinkley. they wanted to survive and did what they had to do. Now look at them.

Whether you agree or not isn't germane. I'm just stating the points. That's all. Look at where I reside. I know very well, what the economy or lack thereof is doing. I see it every day, close up and perosnal and there isn't a **** thing I (or you) can do about it because the people in charge could really care less.

Just because we changed guard from Bush to Obama really has very little to do with the ultimate outcome. Obama is just another installment in a series of installments aligned by the Builderberg's and the CFR, aimed at the ultimate goal. Mr. Obama, just like Mr. Bush, will do what he's told to do, and he will like it just like George W and Bill Clinton and all the others did. The only exception to the norm was John F. Kennedy and look what happened to him.

In the grand scheme of things, Triumph is but a speck of fly crap on a large floor. The UK is going through the basically the same thing as we are here as is Japan and all the rest of the industrialized world. We all live on this orb and well all affect each other despite what China believes.

Again, it's the end game that's important, not the lead up to half time because we are presently in the lead up to half time festivities. We still have 2 quarters to play out. Be patient.

Good to see you back Flip.. I was fixing to ask what happened to ya.. I was beginning to think that they already went and "spread your wealth" to the point you couldn't post no more... lol

For years this country has been accepting of the ridiculously high prices for goods.
Now that the well is dry it is evident that we have been grossly overcharged for a very long time. Marked up goods stand out and the american public is not buying essentially telling these retailers that their prices are too high. Its funny, when selling a home you are at the mercy of the market, if the price is too high you lower to the point the the market is willing to pay. Retailers dont seem to get this. Sure there are manufacturers cost and such but the mark up is where the problem lies. Everybody should have the oppurtunity to make a living. Goods are worth a certain amount of money. Just not what they are selling for these days.

Bottom line: Lower your prices america and people will buy!!!


mutt

Sidecar Flip said:

Whether you agree or not isn't germane. I'm just stating the points. That's all.

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:kk:

Welcome back, Flip

Jamie

I'm around. I've just been tied up so to speak. It's the end of the year and I have to get my crap in order so I can contribute to Obama's releif plan..........

My new products have really taken more time that I thought they would, there is lots of engineering going on, most, over my head anyway. I should have the stainless radiator insert for the Standard R3, the R3Classic and the Touring done in 2 weeks, an individual and unique insert for each model, then the chin spoiler and then the cat delete and then I think I'll retire.

You guys will appreciate my new exploits. I've entered into a open end quote to rebuild a WW II Panzier Backpack mounted flamethrower. There are 2 in existence, one at Fort Knox and one in my shop.

It's a neat little torch. Effective range is 412 feet with a burn time of 7 seconds continuous running on heavy motor oil mixed with kerosene. The propellant is nitrogen at 715psi and the unit's hand held torch is ignited with a 40 caliber aluminum cased phosporus tipped round.

The guy who owns it is a WWII weapons fanatic. I already told him that he can test it, I'll take the movies. He wants to do a You-Tube vid of the unit. Me, I'm afraid of uncontrolled fire.

Maybe I should stock up on late model HD's. Sounds like they may become collectable.