sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
Over the last few months @Paul Bryant s bike has developed an odd idling issue we have been trying to resolve and its now time to ask everyone. On load it also feels "heavy"

The obvious has been tried, TPS ISCV rest and correct, MAP lines all good, new plugs, cleaned air filters, throttles are balanced even replaced leads and checked all coils. We reloaded the Hanso Tune ECU map from my bike to is. Reset the PCV to Hansos base map and removed all trims from the AT. Tested ISCM cycles fine.

This made no difference.

Yesterday we moved my POD300 onto his bike and put my bike on the computer linked to to the PCV to make some comparisons as my bikes running sweet.

At idle his bike is running 11:1AFR that drops to 10:1 and splutters (obviously too rich to burn clean). My bike AFR was 13:1 idle and dropped to 12:1 but was clean. The rich AFR was also consisten with the squirt of unburnt fuel coming out exhaust. We used the POD300 to lean out the fuel on the PCV till we got similar AFR to my bike and it idled better.

However we also noticed the Pauls bike was idling at around 650 to 700 rpm. Tune ECU we then set to run at 1100rpm at above 70degC (as a test) loaded map and it still stayed around 700rpm.

Reset TPS and ISCV, this made no difference it jumped for a few seconds to around 1000 then settled back to 700. After the reset and idle setting increase I manually tweaked the ICSM nut to increase the RPM but it simply cycled back to 700. Its also quite unstable and trying to stall out.

I think if we can sort the idle setting we'll have the problem licked.

What sets the bikes idle settings?, thought it was the temp settings on Tune ECU (works on my bike). I recall reading a post (possible by @warp9.9) that No.1 cylinder has an idle screw that can effect the bike idling and when balancing you only adjust 2&3? but I'd stand corrected on that. Could this be the issue and do we need to tweak this?
 

idk

Living Legend
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
5,183
Location
Maryland
Ride
Royal Enfield Bullet
You may also want to clean the Crank Position Sensor. Easy job. Instructions for balancing the throttle bodies are in my signature. Also well worth doing.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
You may also want to clean the Crank Position Sensor. Easy job. Instructions for balancing the throttle bodies are in my signature. Also well worth doing.

Hi Ian. Thanks for that suggestion. Throttle bodies already balanced. This is why its so frustrating we've done the obvious and started parts swapping.

Pauls bike does have one heat range cooler plugs. That have any effect? Know it effected my old T140 Bonneville
 

ratsidecar

.060 Over
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Messages
155
Location
Northern Ireland
Ride
2006 Rocket III
I had an intermittent idle issue on mine, was idling too low then sometimes dropping really low, sputtering and cutting out. Performed an ISCV/TPS reset and it worked for a while then returned to its old habits. When it was getting serviced the triumph guys said there was nothing wrong with it and TPS voltage etc read fine when they tested it. I replaced the primary TPS anyway and the problem was cured.

My theory on the situation was that the TPS would intermittently stick, making the bike think that the throttle was open a few percent and richen the mixture accordingly despite the butterflies being closed. This over rich mixture would then cause the rpm to drop and the ISCV would have a fit trying to open the butterflies to raise the idle rpm. Which would correct the mixture as the butterflies opened to the correct amount relative to the amount of fuel going in, idle would pick up too high and then the cycle would begin again. Thats just my theory on what was happening but the TPS replacement cured the problem anyway.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
I had an intermittent idle issue on mine, was idling too low then sometimes dropping really low, sputtering and cutting out. Performed an ISCV/TPS reset and it worked for a while then returned to its old habits. When it was getting serviced the triumph guys said there was nothing wrong with it and TPS voltage etc read fine when they tested it. I replaced the primary TPS anyway and the problem was cured.

My theory on the situation was that the TPS would intermittently stick, making the bike think that the throttle was open a few percent and richen the mixture accordingly despite the butterflies being closed. This over rich mixture would then cause the rpm to drop and the ISCV would have a fit trying to open the butterflies to raise the idle rpm. Which would correct the mixture as the butterflies opened to the correct amount relative to the amount of fuel going in, idle would pick up too high and then the cycle would begin again. Thats just my theory on what was happening but the TPS replacement cured the problem anyway.

Hi Ratsidecar

Thanks also this issue is not intermittent and constant. Also had the Power Commander Software running with the fault as we were trying to live tune the issue out with the bike running by adjusting fueling and the TPS was 0% at all times, however I have a spare TPS in my garage and we may swap it out, only takes a few minutes to try.

This is why I posted up here, there's an awful lot of smart people and suggestions like yours make me consider other options.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
I was developing a similar idle issue on my Classic. A couple of tanks of fuel with fuel injector cleaner later, and all was well.

Steel, Paul is trying this today I think as hes out on a run somewhere, the reason I'm liking your suggestion is we have a batch of dirty fuel here in NZ a while back with too much Sulphur Dioxide (think thats what it was) and it caused chaos as it oxidised on the fuel level gauges in many vehicle tanks and the cars ran out of gas while reading 1/4 full, maybe we've got some deposits in the injectors odd things happen to chemicals when you pressurize and heat them.
 

Claviger

Aspiring Student
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
6,419
Location
Olympia Washington
Ride
'14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
Check the coolant temp sensor and ensure it's functioning as well as the intake air temp sensor, both will screw up fueling if they're not functioning properly.

Good that you tested the same tune on 2 different bikes, eliminates it at the cause, so moving to hardware.

TPS - loosen the bolt a touch while it's idling and adjust it back and forth watching voltage in TuneECU, if the bike is responding to the .01 - .03 volt movements as you gently and slowly wiggle the sensor, the sensor is fine. Set back to correct voltage.

What is strange is the idle not targeting the RPM you're commanding in TuneECU, it should go after that target value in the table. Possibly a clue?

I assume from the context clues, Pauls R3 has an AT fitted and the O2 box unchecked in TuneECU? If that's not the case, and he is using the stock sensor and has the O2 box checked, just uncheck the box, reset adaptations, and see if it fixes it.

A blocked injector would cause lean fuelilng, but, it may have become sticky or not fully closing, leading to a rich condition, this should sound like almost a lope in the idle and the one cylinder that's got a grumpy injector will throw off the idle cadence. Easiest check is to swap in a known good set to verify it's not that. Try running some cleaner or elevated ethanol content fuel through, may help.

Then my mind says, barometric sensor may be going out, its located back under the left side cover if memory serves right. I can't offer how to check it easily, but, it can also cause fueling problems if the reading is off. This is a reference value not shown in TuneECU I don't think, it's used by the ECU for elevation compensation.

If it's none of those issues, and it's not the crank position sensor, I'll be looking at the ignition system, or some part of it not cooperating as it should be.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
Check the coolant temp sensor and ensure it's functioning as well as the intake air temp sensor, both will screw up fueling if they're not functioning properly.

Good that you tested the same tune on 2 different bikes, eliminates it at the cause, so moving to hardware.

TPS - loosen the bolt a touch while it's idling and adjust it back and forth watching voltage in TuneECU, if the bike is responding to the .01 - .03 volt movements as you gently and slowly wiggle the sensor, the sensor is fine. Set back to correct voltage.

What is strange is the idle not targeting the RPM you're commanding in TuneECU, it should go after that target value in the table. Possibly a clue?

I assume from the context clues, Pauls R3 has an AT fitted and the O2 box unchecked in TuneECU? If that's not the case, and he is using the stock sensor and has the O2 box checked, just uncheck the box, reset adaptations, and see if it fixes it.

A blocked injector would cause lean fuelilng, but, it may have become sticky or not fully closing, leading to a rich condition, this should sound like almost a lope in the idle and the one cylinder that's got a grumpy injector will throw off the idle cadence. Easiest check is to swap in a known good set to verify it's not that. Try running some cleaner or elevated ethanol content fuel through, may help.

Then my mind says, barometric sensor may be going out, its located back under the left side cover if memory serves right. I can't offer how to check it easily, but, it can also cause fueling problems if the reading is off. This is a reference value not shown in TuneECU I don't think, it's used by the ECU for elevation compensation.

If it's none of those issues, and it's not the crank position sensor, I'll be looking at the ignition system, or some part of it not cooperating as it should be.

Hi Claviger,

The coolant temp sensor is good for certain, the air temp sensor could do with being a little further out from where it is but has always been in its current location without issue.

As per a previous post I think we'll throw my spare TPS on if the injector cleaner doesn't do the job.

O2 sensor definitely unchecked.

Yes the strange thing is the bike not targeting a set RPM and I also believe this is the "clue" to the issue and what I am chasing. In my original post I mentioned a comment I had read about not adjusting the first throttle body screw when balancing the injector bodies as I think this sets the base for the ISM adjustments but I cannot recall where or what that was in regard too. What we think is happening looking at the AFR is that the bike idle is 650 to 750rpm, the mixture is 11:1 and its gradually fouling the plugs, when given a slight rev the AFR drops for a split second to 10:1 as it gives the additional gas squirt we talked about.

Oddly when the Autotune starts I can get it to target the set leaner AFR but due to the low idle it then runs like a bag of bolts and stalls out, enriching it keeps it running but not well. If we force the idle higer it also cleans up this is why I think the idle fault is the crux of the issue.

I have a complete set of injector bodies on my bench at the present off my other R3 this may be worth fitting up to at least rule the injectors out can do the same with the barometric too, we have already changed plugs, leads and one coil as the ECU had a fault indication but I think this may be a false lead as it hasn't reoccurred and it came on soon after the lead swap so not focusing on that.

Thanks for your suggestions.
 

Similar threads

Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks some useful and important features of R3Owners. For the best possible site experience please take a moment to disable your AdBlocker for R3Owners.Net.

I've Disabled AdBlock