Bobby K
.060 Over
Do any of you PC3 experts know if the canned PC3 MAPs on the Power Commander site were created on a Rocket that had the 20222 base tune loaded. That would make sense to me, just want to confirm my thinking. Thanks!
PC3 MAP question?
- Thread starter Bobby K
- Start date
RatBoy
Turbocharged
It depends upon what else you have?
Go here... Power Commander Downloads and Product Purchases, Maps, Installation Guides, Accessories
change the year if it's not a 2008. The available maps are at the bottom of the page.
I'd be careful if you don't have one of these exact configurations. Even if you do, expecting the tune to be perfect for your individual application would be unreasonable. They'll get you in the neighborhood, but you'll still have to fiddle with them.
Go here... Power Commander Downloads and Product Purchases, Maps, Installation Guides, Accessories
change the year if it's not a 2008. The available maps are at the bottom of the page.
I'd be careful if you don't have one of these exact configurations. Even if you do, expecting the tune to be perfect for your individual application would be unreasonable. They'll get you in the neighborhood, but you'll still have to fiddle with them.
Pig9r
Living Legend
It was actually the 20050 tune, which was the original version of the 20222 tune. The 20222 tune was release by Triumph to address idle issues. The PCIII maps should run the same.
KingOfFleece
Rated 5 STRAS June 2012 MCN
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FWIW, I used the canned Jardine map and it was in the ballpark but a dynotune cleaned it up big time. I've now seen this on several Triumph's and, at least for me, think a dynotune is a must. My bike had a lean spot that was a bit more than I liked prior to the tune (but after install of the PC3).
Pig9r
Living Legend
+1 on the dyno tune. I didn't pick up a whole lot of hp, but the smoothness in the throttle was worth it alone.
HellFire
Legend
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Very true, I had very close to the M510-005 exact set up so that's the one I picked. Bike did run fine with no problems and I ran this way for 6 months. Getting a custom Dyno tune netted an additional 7hp and 10flbs torque over the way it was. So I for one recomend that someday when you have everything the way you want it, go for the custom tweeking on a dyno by a qualified tech to "make it yours".
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
Ok, I am going off topic here, but hope you find it informative:
Many do not realize just how much variation there is between bikes of the same make and model. I have seen differences in bore diameter, piston clearance, ring gap, cam timing, and more. How well the engine was broken in and sealed up makes a difference as well. Every little detail adds up. And one of the biggest issues is the difference in injector flow rates. At static (100% duty cycle - where the engine never runs) the injector flow can be as close as 1-2%, however at lower duty cycles, the difference can be 4-14%.
This makes canned maps further from perfect for different bikes with the same modifications. Even though they may only be off 4% at WOT, at smaller throttle openings and lower engine speeds, they can vary by a large margin. And then there is the issue of differences in lag time - how long each injector takes to open.
Not many flow enough injectors over a wide range of dynamic flow rates to see just how much this is an issue in all vehicles, and this has long been a dirty little secret of those in the know. Many companies sell matched sets of injectors, but if they are only flowed and matched at static flow, this means little. Rob's dyno service has a well written page on this subject that is well worth reading - Rob's Dyno Service
Let's say you have 3 injectors that at 4000 rpm and a duty cycle that equals around 50% throttle opening, injector 1 flows X, injector 2 flows X+4%, and injector 3 flows X-4%. Now on the dyno, we tune to maximum brake torque (MBT) at this load and engine speed. Everything is great... right? However this is still a trade-off since the injectors are flowing different rates - in this example the flow variation is 8%. This means that canned maps are an even bigger compromise than many realize, but we are only getting started.
Lets say bike 1 has 44 psi at the fuel rail. And bike 2 has slight manufacturing and assembly differences in the fuel lines, filter, pressure regulator, and voltage to the pump. This results in 43 psi (differences in voltage alone can mean more than this). This results in the injectors in bike 2 flowing 1.1% less, even if the injectors are dynamically matched - which they are not.
Some cylinders want/need more fuel, some less. Now let's suppose that cylinder 2 is the center cylinder and has a factory offset of 2% more fuel, and cylinder 3 is the hottest running cylinder and has a factory offset of 3% more fuel (these are just random offset numbers - some offsets are considerably larger). This makes tuning results an even bigger compromise from best potential output.
Now you might be able to see how tuning each cylinder independently can make large improvements in total output and transient response. The problem is that not all tuning solutions allow tuning the cylinders independently.
Now let's say bike 1 and bike 2 differ only slightly in how the cam sprockets and mounting holes are machined and the results are that bike 2 has both cams advanced 2 degrees (this is just a random number, I have seen as much as 4 degrees of difference in each cam). This means that the output will differ slightly at each engine speed and load.
I could go on and list issues with bore diameter, piston diameter, ring gap, valve lash, head castings, throttle body machining, intake adapter/manifold trimming, header port shrouding/alignment, etc. But I bet you get the idea.
For many, this is not a big deal, but it does explain how some can have issues with a specific canned map when running the exact same modifications. And why a dyno run at WOT does not tell the entire story.
I hope this helps.
Many do not realize just how much variation there is between bikes of the same make and model. I have seen differences in bore diameter, piston clearance, ring gap, cam timing, and more. How well the engine was broken in and sealed up makes a difference as well. Every little detail adds up. And one of the biggest issues is the difference in injector flow rates. At static (100% duty cycle - where the engine never runs) the injector flow can be as close as 1-2%, however at lower duty cycles, the difference can be 4-14%.
This makes canned maps further from perfect for different bikes with the same modifications. Even though they may only be off 4% at WOT, at smaller throttle openings and lower engine speeds, they can vary by a large margin. And then there is the issue of differences in lag time - how long each injector takes to open.
Not many flow enough injectors over a wide range of dynamic flow rates to see just how much this is an issue in all vehicles, and this has long been a dirty little secret of those in the know. Many companies sell matched sets of injectors, but if they are only flowed and matched at static flow, this means little. Rob's dyno service has a well written page on this subject that is well worth reading - Rob's Dyno Service
Let's say you have 3 injectors that at 4000 rpm and a duty cycle that equals around 50% throttle opening, injector 1 flows X, injector 2 flows X+4%, and injector 3 flows X-4%. Now on the dyno, we tune to maximum brake torque (MBT) at this load and engine speed. Everything is great... right? However this is still a trade-off since the injectors are flowing different rates - in this example the flow variation is 8%. This means that canned maps are an even bigger compromise than many realize, but we are only getting started.
Lets say bike 1 has 44 psi at the fuel rail. And bike 2 has slight manufacturing and assembly differences in the fuel lines, filter, pressure regulator, and voltage to the pump. This results in 43 psi (differences in voltage alone can mean more than this). This results in the injectors in bike 2 flowing 1.1% less, even if the injectors are dynamically matched - which they are not.
Some cylinders want/need more fuel, some less. Now let's suppose that cylinder 2 is the center cylinder and has a factory offset of 2% more fuel, and cylinder 3 is the hottest running cylinder and has a factory offset of 3% more fuel (these are just random offset numbers - some offsets are considerably larger). This makes tuning results an even bigger compromise from best potential output.
Now you might be able to see how tuning each cylinder independently can make large improvements in total output and transient response. The problem is that not all tuning solutions allow tuning the cylinders independently.
Now let's say bike 1 and bike 2 differ only slightly in how the cam sprockets and mounting holes are machined and the results are that bike 2 has both cams advanced 2 degrees (this is just a random number, I have seen as much as 4 degrees of difference in each cam). This means that the output will differ slightly at each engine speed and load.
I could go on and list issues with bore diameter, piston diameter, ring gap, valve lash, head castings, throttle body machining, intake adapter/manifold trimming, header port shrouding/alignment, etc. But I bet you get the idea.
For many, this is not a big deal, but it does explain how some can have issues with a specific canned map when running the exact same modifications. And why a dyno run at WOT does not tell the entire story.
I hope this helps.
Bobby K
.060 Over
Thanks for all the good info. I see a dyno run in my future....
When I got my PC3 and loaded my first tune, the bike didn't run any better, and I know now it was because I didn't have the right Triumph base tune loaded in my ECM. As I understand it, the PC3 adds and subtracts fuel from the base tune, so if you don't have the right base tune loaded it stands to reason that the end results won't be correct. Thats also why my Gi-Pro didn't open the secondaries as it should have. I like Hellfire's idea of making my modifications easily reversable, so I plan to keep the underseat K&N and leave the secondaries in. That way if I ever have to get the dealer involved they will be working on a stock bike and not asking a lot of questions.
When I got my PC3 and loaded my first tune, the bike didn't run any better, and I know now it was because I didn't have the right Triumph base tune loaded in my ECM. As I understand it, the PC3 adds and subtracts fuel from the base tune, so if you don't have the right base tune loaded it stands to reason that the end results won't be correct. Thats also why my Gi-Pro didn't open the secondaries as it should have. I like Hellfire's idea of making my modifications easily reversable, so I plan to keep the underseat K&N and leave the secondaries in. That way if I ever have to get the dealer involved they will be working on a stock bike and not asking a lot of questions.
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
The PC3 is a fairly simple piggy-back controler. All it does is intercept the signal from the ECU to the injectors and increases or decreases the time the injector is open at specific engine speeds and throttle openings.
As a result, the base map and the PC3 map have to be correct for the correct fueling.
For those running a PC3 and converting the map into TuneEdit, be aware that the numbers in Power Commander fuel and ignition tables are NOT percentages of fuel and ignition advance in degrees. They are close, but not exact.
In fact, I have seen PC3 units with a zero map cause slight differences in output on the dyno even though no mapping changes have been made. Just the connection of the PC3 can cause a slight change to mapping. Something to be aware of.
As a result, the base map and the PC3 map have to be correct for the correct fueling.
For those running a PC3 and converting the map into TuneEdit, be aware that the numbers in Power Commander fuel and ignition tables are NOT percentages of fuel and ignition advance in degrees. They are close, but not exact.
In fact, I have seen PC3 units with a zero map cause slight differences in output on the dyno even though no mapping changes have been made. Just the connection of the PC3 can cause a slight change to mapping. Something to be aware of.
I have another newbie question. I have the full TORS and cat delete with the Triumph tune that goes with it. I want to do the PC111 and underseat K&N filter. Do I go back to the original stock Triumph tune and then have it Dyno-tuned or do i keep it as is and go for the tuning runs with the upgraded Triumph tune. What should I be asking for in the tune, I dont need Top end hp just looking for more mid-rage power, throttle smoothness and gas milage Also does any one know a good tuner in the PA, NJ, or DE area near Philly. Thanks for any suggestions
. I have the full TORS and cat delete with the Triumph tune that goes with it. I want to do the PC111 and underseat K&N filter. Do I go back to the original stock Triumph tune and then have it Dyno-tuned or do i keep it as is and go for the tuning runs with the upgraded Triumph tune. What should I be asking for in the tune, I dont need Top end hp just looking for more mid-rage power, throttle smoothness and gas milage Also does any one know a good tuner in the PA, NJ, or DE area near Philly. Thanks for any suggestions
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