Joesmoe
IMOKUR2
There is a reason the first instruction for almost all work is "disconnect the battery".
doncuddy
soberdude
yep--new battery did the trick--no other issues...grateful...
skydog1000
Living Legend
Sweet glad it all worked out well
rocketjohn
Top Fuel
It takes some folks lots of grief before they learn that a load test is needed to prove a battery is done with. They get to a point where they may have all their volts, but no amperage available. Put a load test on it, and the voltage will fall immediately. If it is good however, the voltage will dip a few volts but recover when the load is removed. And it is further within the realm of possibility that a motorcycle battery can either get so feeble as to not even light the lights, but it is also a sign of death if the bike will crank like crazy, but not fire. With electronic ignition and fuel injection...the starter is a pretty serious load by itself....the rest however needs lots of volts too. Since the starter is a simple circuit it will slurp amps and volts willy nilly, and if there isn't capacity to spare the fuel and ignition system won't get any.
DEcosse
If it's no Scottish it's CRAP!
Found some interesting facts associated with Rocket Starters and Batteries while developing my Key-Less system.
Fact 1: The first was when I shipped my first couple of R3 systems (had shipped to many other Triumph models and lot of other marques also yet never saw this before an R3!):
when the starter was operated the key-less ignition would drop its latch and kick off.
I subsequently discovered that the R3 battery takes an incredible hit when the button is first pressed - peak current occurs just to get it moving- pretty much any bike will always stop on a compression stroke (point of greatest resistance once engine is no longer powered); The Smart Switches I was using were actually working down to 8V - I tested on a power supply by simply turning the voltage down until it dropped out (simulating the effect of the voltage sag caused by the current);
That proves that the battery actually drops at least momentarily below 8V! I found I could add a short delay (about 1/2 sec) using a capacitor which was sufficient to stop the latch dropping - that also proves the sag below the threshold was actually quite brief in duration (you would never see this on your DC voltmeter - would have to use an oscilloscope. (0.5s is nothing it would seem in real time but an absolute eon in electronics
)
I then changed the Smart Switches for a different spec device and then found it would work all the way down to 6.2V (without any capacitor delay).
Those devices are my standard ever since.
Fact 2: The next thing I found was how much current the starter solenoid draws - one of the first Key-Less PDM60 recipients found similar problem except this time it was the PDM60 channel that was kicking off; he had Daymakers and I programmed the circuit that supplied the headlights and Solenoid with 8A. (7A is what a pair of LED Daymakers on hi beam draw compared to 10A for incandescents) This was too low! Which proved the starter solenoid draws in excess of 8A! We set it to 10A to accommodate. So the Solenoid itself draws in the order of 9A - a lot more than I would have typically expected; but this IS a pretty heft solenoid; after all it is an automotive starter.
Fact3: All was good from there forward till I found another user with a problem that looked VERY similar to the first one - i.e. starter dropping out the ignition latch circuit and presumably due to low voltage)
I thought perhaps I had used the wrong devices but a check proved they were the same low voltage type; then I discovered this user had a 1.4kW starter!! That's another 20A over the std 1.2kW starter.
The fact that THAT one was dropping out proves that now the battery voltage must have been dropping below 6.2V!!!!
I made another slight design change that accommodated even that extreme sag (have just made it std going forward although this is a rare set-up)
Summary:
Fact 1: your battery will drop below 8V when starter button first pressed, when it sees the maximum load
Fact 2: Your Starter Solenoid itself draws a whopping 9A.
Fact 3. If you operate a 1.4kW starter your battery voltage will drop below 6.2V (!!!!) when starter button first pressed, when it sees the maximum load
I think most would agree these are some pretty big numbers that you would not expect - at least on the voltage sag part, that is simply caused by having an automotive size load requirement but compromised by a motorcycle sized battery.
I mean that 'little' (OK - big by motorcycle but tiny by automotive stds) battery has to crank over a motor that is bigger than my 2.0L Mercedes Turbo!
It would be amiss of me not to mention the absolutely incredible support in both their patience and amazing supply of requested data to help identify these issues so they could be resolved - a big thankyou to @BDKcoyote, @micromike1, @R3Tex and @mully95 for their help.
Fact 1: The first was when I shipped my first couple of R3 systems (had shipped to many other Triumph models and lot of other marques also yet never saw this before an R3!):
when the starter was operated the key-less ignition would drop its latch and kick off.
I subsequently discovered that the R3 battery takes an incredible hit when the button is first pressed - peak current occurs just to get it moving- pretty much any bike will always stop on a compression stroke (point of greatest resistance once engine is no longer powered); The Smart Switches I was using were actually working down to 8V - I tested on a power supply by simply turning the voltage down until it dropped out (simulating the effect of the voltage sag caused by the current);
That proves that the battery actually drops at least momentarily below 8V! I found I could add a short delay (about 1/2 sec) using a capacitor which was sufficient to stop the latch dropping - that also proves the sag below the threshold was actually quite brief in duration (you would never see this on your DC voltmeter - would have to use an oscilloscope. (0.5s is nothing it would seem in real time but an absolute eon in electronics
)I then changed the Smart Switches for a different spec device and then found it would work all the way down to 6.2V (without any capacitor delay).
Those devices are my standard ever since.
Fact 2: The next thing I found was how much current the starter solenoid draws - one of the first Key-Less PDM60 recipients found similar problem except this time it was the PDM60 channel that was kicking off; he had Daymakers and I programmed the circuit that supplied the headlights and Solenoid with 8A. (7A is what a pair of LED Daymakers on hi beam draw compared to 10A for incandescents) This was too low! Which proved the starter solenoid draws in excess of 8A! We set it to 10A to accommodate. So the Solenoid itself draws in the order of 9A - a lot more than I would have typically expected; but this IS a pretty heft solenoid; after all it is an automotive starter.
Fact3: All was good from there forward till I found another user with a problem that looked VERY similar to the first one - i.e. starter dropping out the ignition latch circuit and presumably due to low voltage)
I thought perhaps I had used the wrong devices but a check proved they were the same low voltage type; then I discovered this user had a 1.4kW starter!! That's another 20A over the std 1.2kW starter.
The fact that THAT one was dropping out proves that now the battery voltage must have been dropping below 6.2V!!!!
I made another slight design change that accommodated even that extreme sag (have just made it std going forward although this is a rare set-up)
Summary:
Fact 1: your battery will drop below 8V when starter button first pressed, when it sees the maximum load
Fact 2: Your Starter Solenoid itself draws a whopping 9A.
Fact 3. If you operate a 1.4kW starter your battery voltage will drop below 6.2V (!!!!) when starter button first pressed, when it sees the maximum load
I think most would agree these are some pretty big numbers that you would not expect - at least on the voltage sag part, that is simply caused by having an automotive size load requirement but compromised by a motorcycle sized battery.
I mean that 'little' (OK - big by motorcycle but tiny by automotive stds) battery has to crank over a motor that is bigger than my 2.0L Mercedes Turbo!
It would be amiss of me not to mention the absolutely incredible support in both their patience and amazing supply of requested data to help identify these issues so they could be resolved - a big thankyou to @BDKcoyote, @micromike1, @R3Tex and @mully95 for their help.
Last edited:
happyhenry
.060 Over
found these bikes very sensitive to a battery not at its peak.i found that batteries that would not start the r3 still worked in my Suzuki.cavalcade 1400
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