Claviger

Aspiring Student
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Jul 25, 2014
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6,419
Location
Olympia Washington
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'14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
Also, the value shown below the idle % in Tune ECU is the number of counts the idle control stepper motor is from home. Thus the greater the count the farther the stepper had to adjust to hold the programmed idle rpm. Hint; too high and the stepper can't physically extend further. Below 25 counts, the idle rpm may stay above the programmed value as the stepper can't retract further than to 0. This value changes as the ECU actively manages idle speed. So, if that value is changing much and the idle rpm is not, there is a problem or the converse is true as well. The throttle cable can be adjusted too short so it acts as the idle stop, or the TB linkage may be stuck, etc.

Great suggestions, this little bit, brilliant, I hadn't realized that relationship myself, great to know!
 

sleeves

Nitrous
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Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
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05 R3 Std
I can trouble shoot my bike faster with a laptop faster than anyone could even get their tools out of the toolbox to adjust old school stuff:p

Paul’s bike is down to some super obscure hardware error or user error (sorry not insulting you guys, but it does happen to the best of us).

I have both carbed and EFI Triumphs can certainly diagnose and sort EFI faster than carbs (with my old Trumpy its "yep that feel/looks about right" EFI I can test and measure), but this has got me.

No offence taken, if I was easily offended I wouldn't have posted.

None of us is smarter than all of us.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
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Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
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Other then compression testing have you verified valve timing? Also Paul didn't you have a gear position sensor problem? Just thinking out loud

This is a good point, Pauls bike due to the gear position shaft fault is always telling the ECU its not in neutral as the selectors not feeding back the correct signal. On the attached pic Pauls image says Gear Position is "6" . The safeties have been jacked to keep bike running until repair performed.

There's a separate fuel Map for neutral no? May explain idle fueling issues if bike thinks its in 5th gear.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
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Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
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05 R3 Std
Try disconnecting the battery. This will force the ECU to re-boot. Next reset the ISCV correctly and then the adjust TPS to spec. Reset adaptation and then fire her up. If the problem is gone just check that the TB sync is still good.

If problem persists, pull the air filters and open the secondary throttle blades if they are not open so that you can see the primary throttle blade positions. The gaps should be visibly the same. If not, and you had to adjust one way off when syncing before then that may indicate which cylinder is a problem. (A piece of MIG welding wire works as a great gap gauge.) Ignition coils can function at higher speeds but be erratic at idle or low loads. A TB boot could be cracked or leaking at the boot to head joint. You can put a vacuum gauge on one cylinder and see if the reading is similar to the others. A small one way check valve in the line leading to the gauge (available at most auto parts stores) will let the vacuum gauge "capture" the highest value. Simply plug that cylinder's port on the triple tee for the MAP sensor. Different readings between cylinders can point to the problem cylinder.

I suspect that re-booting the ECU will resolve the issue. The R3 ECU is sensitive to voltage changes and may also have a software bug that it can't recover from when certain operating conditions occur. Yours is not the first Rocket to have an idle gremlin.

Side note: The MAP reading on the R3 can be far lower than 630 and she will run just fine, actually better than if it is higher. With timing and fuel adjustments they will run at 490 @ 850 rpm and tick over smooth and steady.

Also, the value shown below the idle % in Tune ECU is the number of counts the idle control stepper motor is from home. Thus the greater the count the farther the stepper had to adjust to hold the programmed idle rpm. Hint; too high and the stepper can't physically extend further. Below 25 counts, the idle rpm may stay above the programmed value as the stepper can't retract further than to 0. This value changes as the ECU actively manages idle speed. So, if that value is changing much and the idle rpm is not, there is a problem or the converse is true as well. The throttle cable can be adjusted too short so it acts as the idle stop, or the TB linkage may be stuck, etc.

Thanks Speedy.

Pauls is certainly not the first R3 to have an idle problem had my own before.

But as per yesterdays post. We have swapped out New plugs, leads and coils, swapped full EFI system with a system I know to be good, changed ECU also with a spare. Reset all maps and tunes and done so many Resets I lose count with zero change to the way the bikes running.

MAP is well balanced and better than my bike that we have sitting right next to Pauls and are using as a comparison.

My concern has been the ISM being "out of range" and being "zeroed" while in this state we checked the cables and linkages against the spare and my bike. Currently the spare EFI system (entire system with TPS, ISM linkages, injectors etc) is on. We put Pauls and this on the bench and studied the operation before swapping to understand how the components interacted and the operation was the same

Will look into the % idle values
 

sleeves

Nitrous
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Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
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That is why the O2 sensor should be connected and active.


Page 8 of 18
Forcing Adaption to Take Place
If the read out indicates that the motorcycle
is not adapted, the following will force the
system to make adaptions:
1.
Ensure the coolant is at ambient temperature
2.
Start the engine and allow it to warm
WITHOUT TOUCHING
THE THROTTLE
until the cooling fan comes on.
3.
Leave the engine to idle for a further
12
minutes.
NOTE: As an alternative to the above proces
s, connect the diagnostic tool, scroll to
ADJUST TUNE and select RESET ADAPTIONS. Th
is will force a fast adaption routine to
take place in around 5 seconds. For this
to happen, the engine MUST be running, it
must be at normal operating temperature an
d in closed loop control mode. Under any
other conditions fast adaption will not take
place and may cause default values to be
loaded, which may then require a normal
12 minute adaption routine to be run.
IMPORTANT NOTE: This function only applies to Daytona 650, Rocket 3, Sprint
ST 1050, Speed Triple 1050 and Daytona 675, but not Daytona 600
.
Note: Closed loop will activate at approximately 75
°
C. Fuel system status menu
location: Diagnostics, Current data.

Hi Penner and thanks.

Oddly I had been toying with this idea of throwing the NBO2 sensor back in and doing a "proper" Reset Adaption what put me off (other than the hassle) was that due to the fueling I was keen to keep a close eye on the AFR with the WBO2 however as this is not the issue we can change this out now.
 

sleeves

Nitrous
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Messages
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Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
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05 R3 Std
Posting that to ensure you've the correct procedure for adjusting the Idle speed control arm when using TuneECU. I've used the above on both of my triumphs and 1oldbull's, and it works perfectly.

Use the "reset adaption" to baseline the adaptive values in the ECU, but you shouldn't need to allow for the adaption (12 minute tune) since you don't have the o2 sensor connected.

Additionally the 0.5mm clearance he calls out I have never even checked or paid any attention to, simply getting the voltages to 0.6 and ensuring the opening voltage is near 0.75 has always worked with no issues, I think my bike was 0.6/0.72 and bulls was 0.6/0.76.

In regard to the TPS and ISM values

I may have been obsessing with getting Pauls bike to the 0.6 and 0.72V. However my bike has the very original TPS (still waiting for it to fully clap out). It started to fail when I was recently away touring.

What I did was surmise that the 0.12V differential may be more important than the actual 0.6/0.72 values and the TPS was worn and failing by its constant movement at a physical point. As my bike had the common rev "hangup" I connected my Tune ECU and set the TPS to 0.62 and the ISM to 0.74 and it has ran like new since, saved fitting my spare.

Possibly we should be setting up Pauls bike like Bulls, its when I drop the ISM to 0.72 the issues occur on both systems, crank the ISM to 0.75 when can achieve idle, run a 0.15 differential rather than 0.12?
 

Claviger

Aspiring Student
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
6,419
Location
Olympia Washington
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'14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
Check the video I just posted, it shows the wrong way, and right way to adjust the idle control. On mine, I remembered wrong, its .61/.70, and it runs great, no issues with raising idle on cold starts and slowly backing off to the warmed up value. Since it works well, I didn't adjust the idle control arm, old saying about if it aint broke and all.

Random Tech thoughts vlog as related to Rockets

Episode 4
 

sleeves

Nitrous
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Backblocks, Waikato, New Zealand
Ride
05 R3 Std
WoW! all this stuff makes me think the old Lucas stuff wasn't so bad after all..... just sayin! Ahhh, the good old days of points, condenser and a carb. No meters etc. just read the plugs to adjust fuel ratio, and tinker with the main jets.

I'm hearin ya my friend but then I think about plug cut tests in the baking sun, burnt fingers, numerous HT shocks, carb icing on cold days, finding the mixtures not right by a hole appearing in the piston, ahhh the good old days:D:D:D.

Oh and standing in my leathers kicking the hell out of it when it wont start, in the sun, in the rain, in the dark..........

One of my good friends bikes the carb actually "FELL OFF!!" on a late night mission @Paul Bryant will remember me banging on the door of his house in the middle of the night scrounging for two BSF nuts. The carb falling off does nothing good for the AFR ratio....
 

Claviger

Aspiring Student
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
6,419
Location
Olympia Washington
Ride
'14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
If you're adjusting it using the second method in the video (the correct method), and you've swapped all those parts, and everything checks out and it's STILL doing it. I am at a loss, it should work right, and the only thing I can suggest is remove the PC-V, take everything back to stock, tune, o2 sensor, everything and validate that it works like that. Then add one piece at a time until you determine what the problem item is.
 

Speedy

Supercharged
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
342
Location
Wisconsin
This is a good point, Pauls bike due to the gear position shaft fault is always telling the ECU its not in neutral as the selectors not feeding back the correct signal. On the attached pic Pauls image says Gear Position is "6" . The safeties have been jacked to keep bike running until repair performed.

There's a separate fuel Map for neutral no? May explain idle fueling issues if bike thinks its in 5th gear.

There is a separate ignition table. Have you tried modifying the tune by copying the neutral ignition table I(N) to I3? You can also copy F1 to F3 and L1 to L3. That way the values at idle are the same despite the gear selector sensor. You may not want to drive the bike this way but you can check idle speed and quality.

Sounds like you have checked everything else.
 

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