Where is the dang Starter relay on the R3T?!?

The temp fix seems to be okay, but it is just TEMPORARY. I ordered two new cables from Hermeys this morning and hopefully they will arrive by the time I get home next weekend from Spokane. I sure do not want any more issues before the Mayberry trip...

Exchanging notes with @Joesmoe last night it appears that the problem is indeed bad connection on the Negative Ground Cable
This was found early on just by moving it, (without even going through the diagnostic process) - however note that my troubleshooting guide would have got there eventually at step 6

It sounds possibly like the junction where the Large Engine Ground Cable and the smaller gauge main system ground cable (to the small in-line connector) are spliced.

Since you have another cable available - and ultimately will replace with a new one - that sounds like a resolution

Without a temporary replacement this would be another way to go




i.e. just cut the smaller gauge pigtail off and give it its own ring connector.

Even when you get your new cable, you can improve your starter performance by leaving the old cable in place as an additional engine ground, but ALSO fit the new one and using the new pigtail/connector from the new cable to connect to the main harness ground connector. This will improve (lower) your resistance for starter current.

@DEcosse your image didn't come through on this last post -- I presume it's the same one you showed me with the pig tail separated from the main cable.

I respectfully disagree about leaving the old cable. It has had 40,000 miles of working through road vibration and change of battery and other work, that led to the current problem.

At $7.00 retail (amazing one can buy ANYTHING on a Rocket for $7.00) it makes little sense to leave the old, when one can install new and have confidence that one is starting fresh.

Joesmoe said:

@DEcosse your image didn't come through on this last post

Click to expand...

I re-uploaded it directly to the post

I respectfully disagree about leaving the old cable. It has had 40,000 miles of working through road vibration and change of battery and other work, that led to the current problem.....

Click to expand...

I can agree simply from a cost basis - however the problem is (presumably) because of the short pigtail providing the system ground, not the main cable providing the engine ground; and also note that I was suggesting using IN PARALLEL with a new one, and NOT utilizing the main system ground pigtail of the old one, which would now only be serving duty as a parallel starter current path.
But again, as you point out, from a cost perspective, it could certainly be replaced completely.

it makes little sense to leave the old, when one can install new and have confidence that one is starting fresh.

Click to expand...

Confidence would/should not affected as the primary function would already be being covered by the new cable - at worst, even if the old cable DID have a problem beyond the small gauge splice, it would be no worse than just having the new cable alone.

Love that idea . . . perhaps you could identify for us the connector used by the pig tail ?

Not that it would make a difference. I pulled both cables out of the Falcon, took them down to the local autoparts stealer. (I say stealer because they are the only one for 20 miles so naturally their prices reflect them whiping it across your back) yet 25 dollars later I got two heavier gauged cables 6 inches longer in case it was harder to route them, and new eyelets.
Just somthing to keep in mind if you do not want to wait on Triumph.

@DEcosse I invite you to add to this most excellent capture of your troubleshooting expertise, addressing my current case of all power at all expected places, battery kept on a tender, your keyless installed, and once starter button pushed, hearing only a clank.

How to efficiently isolate the problem ?

i do have an extra starter lying around; the start repair kit from that place in UN; installed double neg cables.

No hurry.

Well , we can rule out the clutch switch I would expect since you have my KeyLess and it uses that switch to turn on the system, So have to presume that the switch is fine.

Do you have the High Power Starter Paul?
What type of battery do you have - regular lead-acid or Lithium?

That sounds very similar to a similar problem I helped Mittzy with a while back - he had that config above; 'clank' vs 'click' is the defining factor there - clank infers the starter kinda begins to go and then drops out; click suggests the relay clicking only momentarily and power never really begins the starter.

Honestly, I know it's a suggested 'upgrade' but I can tell you most bike batteries don't have enough current to drive that 'high power starter' properly - the OEM and cranking that big motor is already bad enough
During the early days of my keyless on Rockets I was surprised to get reports of the ignition dropping out during starting - all other bikes I had supplied had no issues; what I discovered is that the battery - even with a std starter - takes a SEVERE voltage sag just as the starter hits (the initial current to get it moving is much higher than the sustaining current once it starts spinning) - now the switching devices in my control circuit (these are not the big power devices on my board, another pair of control devices) worked down to 8.5V - below that they would drop out. That is exactly what was happening, the battery voltage dropped below that level EVEN WITH A STD STARTER/BATTERY.
So I replaced those devices with ones that operate down to 6V and my KeyLess no longer dropped out during starting. (note this issue was only on the first three Rocket KeyLess systems I shipped - that was 5 years ago now!)
But the knowledge gained was that the voltage ALREADY takes a severe hit and its just going to be a lot worse with a high current starter (unless you have a huge battery to make up for it)
Now my KeyLess won't drop out - I know that, have quite a bit of overhead now - but the ECU threshold can still be affected.

With @Mittzy we identified that even though the Lithiums have HUGE starting current, they seem to suffer worse from the short term sag at the point the starter kicks on, even though they have a higher resting voltage.
(note - you will pretty much never catch this with a std meter - a scope or a meter with a 'peak' (sic) low level capture would be required)

For your problem, couple your car battery to it with heavy gauge jumper cables and see if it resolves and gets it to turn over.

p.s. Since you have a spare starter, connect your starter cables to that (leaving your other installed for now) and see if it spins - that will prove at least the control system is all working and it will point to a voltage.load issue

p.p.s. - also might try rocking your bike in gear, just to be sure nothing is stuck!

To answer your question: OEM starter -- unchanged -- and see your point -- the way it starts almost instantly with the current setup speaks to NOT needing it unless I win the lottery and move to higher compression.

Battery is a "standard" battery for the bike -- will have to look at what folks have found work better.

I have had it on a tender almost indefinitely, and a little surprised that it has given up the ghost in only a couple of years.

BTW, the bike is RUNNING right now - started "instantly", connected to the 12V battery of our Chevrolet BOLT EV (supposedly, with the car "on", the BIG battery backs up the 12V supplying power to whatever is being jumped).

THANK YOU !!!

Paul take the bike or battery somewhere that can load test the battery sometimes batteries can spin normal,but still have a weak cell.