Transmission Conundrum R3T

[MaxB]

Here's an interesting one and I'm having trouble working out what's going on - any thoughts, idea welcome.
Yep, the R3's are prone to have clunky transmissions, however I've been noticing that sometimes get a slight kick back through the shifter between 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd unless the up change is at low revs. There is also an accompanying slight grind-clunk, with the grind a split second before clunk of the gear engaging.
I really didn't understand sequential transmissions so checked a few things out (including this excellent You Tube

which, although is about where a sixth gear could be added does walk through what happens in an R3 shift by shift) and I'm starting to think that the sensation of grind before clunk is the dogs not instantly and cleanly meshing with the gear when changing between 1/2 and 2/3. Interestingly there is the one dog wheel for both changes. I've tried letting the revs die off with the clutch in before shifting up, blipping the throttle a little with the clutch in then shifting and both "seemed" to help a bit but could easily be wishful thinking.
However, I lay awake last night picturing in my mind what was happening with the clutch, gears and dog wheel, shifter forks etc and realised I am pretty slow and gentle with many gear changes thinking I was being mechanically sympathetic which I now think might be contributing to the nashing of steel from time to time in the 85k km old transmission.
So today I testing up changes with no clutch - never tried this before on any bike (other than the BSA C15 about 100 years ago when the clutch cable broke). I found that getting the timing right with slight throttle back-off to take the tension out of the drive train and a firm left foot on the shifter the changes can be smooth and instant - and no sensation of grind-clunk and slight kick back on the shift lever. (Although I must say getting 1st to 2nd smooth was a challenge with the transmission lash adding to the need for real finness, which I definitely have not master yet)
Would be interesting to know any thoughts on:

• Anyone who has noticed the same thing on their R3 / R3T
• If I might be on the right track with what's going on in the transmission
• Why, with age, the dogs don't seem to engage as slickly as they used to.
• Anyone else's experience / advice with clutch-less up shifting on an R3
• Or anything else of course...

Cheers

 

[Kevin frazier]

Can you grab the cable at the adjustment ferral, pull away and take a picture of that gap? Also have you changed cable routing or had clutch cable off recently?

 

[MaxB]

Can you grab the cable at the adjustment ferral, pull away and take a picture of that gap? Also have you changed cable routing or had clutch cable off recently?

Hi Kevin - hows it going? - thanks for your quick response. Yes, the clutch cable broke about 18 months ago and I replaced & routed it myself following the path of the old one. Also the clutch has been replaced about 5,000kms ago. One of the reasons I took it in was to see what was happening with the transmission - the guy said after a test ride "definitely your clutch". Sounded like a cheaper option to pulling the motor to get at the transmission. He also would have reset the cable tension and I haven't touched the adjustment since. The new clutch didn't make any difference to the grind-clunk
Added a couple of pics one with cables pulled away the other without.

 

[Kevin frazier]

Looks close to 3mm gap, is it? I was curious to make sure your clutch was in proper adjustment. I personsally dont do the cluthless shifting, i think it works better with high revving engines, but if you make it work it works.

 

[MaxB]

Looks close to 3mm gap, is it? I was curious to make sure your clutch was in proper adjustment. I personsally dont do the cluthless shifting, i think it works better with high revving engines, but if you make it work it works.

Probably closer to 2mm actually. Yeah not entirely comfortable with clutchless change - but it's brilliant when you get it just right - click and it's done.. It's getting it right all the time that's the tricky part..
Thanks Kevin - take care Mate

 

[jake shaw]

I have noticed on mine (14T), that if I change gear too slowly I get a real clunk. Changing gear more quickly gives me a smoother change. I have 48000k on this Rocket + my 05 had 128000k when I sold it. Don't know if this helps but good luck.

 

[Joesmoe]

Clutchless shifting necessarily puts greater stress on the transmission components. The consensus on this site is that between the components being no stronger than those used on smaller bikes that were designed for clutchless shifting tolerance (not that it is ever recommended) combined with being mated to our stronger engine, doing so is strongly discouraged, and insisting on doing so is playing roulette.

Why tempt fate more than we do already ?

To each their own, and your mileage may vary.

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Here's an interesting one and I'm having trouble working out what's going on - any thoughts, idea welcome.
Yep, the R3's are prone to have clunky transmissions, however I've been noticing that sometimes get a slight kick back through the shifter between 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd unless the up change is at low revs. There is also an accompanying slight grind-clunk, with the grind a split second before clunk of the gear engaging.
I really didn't understand sequential transmissions so checked a few things out (including this excellent You Tube

which, although is about where a sixth gear could be added does walk through what happens in an R3 shift by shift) and I'm starting to think that the sensation of grind before clunk is the dogs not instantly and cleanly meshing with the gear when changing between 1/2 and 2/3. Interestingly there is the one dog wheel for both changes. I've tried letting the revs die off with the clutch in before shifting up, blipping the throttle a little with the clutch in then shifting and both "seemed" to help a bit but could easily be wishful thinking.
However, I lay awake last night picturing in my mind what was happening with the clutch, gears and dog wheel, shifter forks etc and realised I am pretty slow and gentle with many gear changes thinking I was being mechanically sympathetic which I now think might be contributing to the nashing of steel from time to time in the 85k km old transmission.
So today I testing up changes with no clutch - never tried this before on any bike (other than the BSA C15 about 100 years ago when the clutch cable broke). I found that getting the timing right with slight throttle back-off to take the tension out of the drive train and a firm left foot on the shifter the changes can be smooth and instant - and no sensation of grind-clunk and slight kick back on the shift lever. (Although I must say getting 1st to 2nd smooth was a challenge with the transmission lash adding to the need for real finness, which I definitely have not master yet)
Would be interesting to know any thoughts on:

• Anyone who has noticed the same thing on their R3 / R3T
• If I might be on the right track with what's going on in the transmission
• Why, with age, the dogs don't seem to engage as slickly as they used to.
• Anyone else's experience / advice with clutch-less up shifting on an R3
• Or anything else of course...

Cheers

Hi Max, I've got what sounds like very similar symptoms to what you are experiencing with 4th gear. I get a severe juddering like dogs are engaging then dropping out then engaging again when under any load in 4th gear. I've got my cases split at the moment and see that one of the shift forks is slightly bent and worn out of shape so it just fractionally does not engage properly. Some of the dogs are rounded and will need gear with the offending dogs replaced. I'm either going to do it myself or have a gearbox engineering place cut the circlip grooves deeper and use a deeper circlip if I am to go down the road of considerable power increase with Supercharger. If I don't supercharge I might just do it myself. One thing tho, I don't know, but I have a habit of doing clutchless upshifts in exactly the way you mention, just rolling off the power while keeping slight up pressure on the gear lever and it snicks up a gear. As you say, lovely and smooth and makes for a comfortable ride for a pillion. However I suspect this had lead to a bent/worn shift fork in my transmission and maybe the rounded dogs so personally I'm going to be mindful to use clutch all the time. It's also cos I've got rheumatoid arthritis in my hands and so can be a bit lazy with the clutch and my habit goes unchecked. I've done it for years on tons of jap mainly Hondas without issue. This thread is the tale of my woes...

4th gear issues R3R 2011

2011 R3R 34k miles. Riding this evening I first notice that it's not going into 5th gear properly. I often clutchless upshift without thinking about it, been doing it for years and it's second nature. Now bike doesn't snick into 5th like it normally does. So I'm mindful to make positive change...

www.r3owners.net

 

[MaxB]

Clutchless shifting necessarily puts greater stress on the transmission components. The consensus on this site is that between the components being no stronger than those used on smaller bikes that were designed for clutchless shifting tolerance (not that it is ever recommended) combined with being mated to our stronger engine, doing so is strongly discouraged, and insisting on doing so is playing roulette.

Why tempt fate more than we do already ?

To each their own, and your mileage may vary.

Thank Joesmoe. Sage advice. I do worry about the slight grind before clunk I referred to in my original post and wonder what part of the transmission is getting a shave each time. It feels so much smoother when clutchless (in my case anyway and only when I get it right)
I guess I need to balance the comparative wear on components between the two alternatives. Hmm, theres that conundrum again. 🏍

 

[warp9.9]

Thank Joesmoe. Sage advice. I do worry about the slight grind before clunk I referred to in my original post and wonder what part of the transmission is getting a shave each time. It feels so much smoother when clutchless (in my case anyway and only when I get it right)
I guess I need to balance the comparative wear on components between the two alternatives. Hmm, theres that conundrum again. 🏍

A grind before she drops in with a clunk. Hmmm sound like you clutch is not releasing enough. Could be liftershaft worn so it does lift the lifterpiece enough. Also could be over heated the clutch warping the steels and fibers. Just went thru that with a caption that was trying one of them rodeo rides. He found that slipping the clutch helps but it also heats things up. Then warping happens. He changed out his clutch and all of a sidden the bike was shifting fine again.