Clutch Rattle Noise Question

Discussion in 'General Tech Talk' started by Micksan, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. Micksan

    Micksan Supercharged

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    Now that I just got finished bragging about the bike , I have a question about a rattle in the clutch.
    When I first start the bike in the morning. Put it in first and then take off , I will sometimes get a hell of a rattle / noise coming out of the clutch area. Does not happen all the time.
    I have checked the clutch cable adjustment. I am wondering if It comes from not engangeing in first gear fully ??? Can't say I have had another bike do this. Thing is I would not want to ignor it and hope it goes away , then leave sitting along side the road. BTW the clutch appears to have been replaced somtime in the past . I got it with 30 K , and I havve added about 8 K.
     
  2. Dennsell

    Dennsell Top Fuel

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    My 06 clutch has audible rattle in neutral more noticable when hot but not loud..

    Could it be the timing chain tension or guides worn causing the rattle under some particular decel conditions??
     
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  3. TOMCAT

    TOMCAT Rage against the machine

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    Mines got a rattle/shudder pulling away from the lights. Had the fricton plates replaced with Barnetts a few thousand klms ago .. didn't stop it. Mechanic told me yesterday he ' thought ' i may be the clutch basket flogged out. 97,000 klms on my 2009 , suppose i'll have to replace and see if that works. Read somewhere a Suzuki Hyabusa basket will fit or is the same .. can't remember which .. anyone know if that's right ??
     
  4. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    Ok Russ and TomCat I copied this from my post on the .com site when Lupe's friend Sal had a clutch failure in San Francisco this will take me a couple replies do the the length of typing rule here and the amount of images that can be posted in one reply so bear with me so I can get it all in. It will take about three replys to get her not including this one.
    It should be noted that I am not a expert on the clutch system but have soem opinoins and do not intend to piss anyone off or sound like Triumph does not know what they are doing. I have been a machinst and tool and die maker for a few years now as I started in 1976. I alsways have to reverse engineer or design stuff to fit older aplications and believe any changes Triumph has made ove rthe years are for two reasons one being availabilty of parts and the other being everything evolves or we would still be trying to figure out why the square wheen does not rotate very well. As in th we UPDATE kit which everone calls for soem reason a upgrade kit. IT is not It is a eveloving update like adding the gear indicator in the roadster surley Triumph does not owe everyone a new instrement cluster because they added it. I have a older 05 Standar with the original clutch and transmition parts. it has 37,000 miles on it. There is no need for it to have a recall because Triumph developed a update kit. There is no need for a recall because Triumph changed the design of the head gasket in which both fit all years of Rockets including the R3T Do I like the newer style better? Heck yes but I am not expecting Triumph to change mine as it works fine.
    All 04-05 clutchs can be changed over to the newer style and yet you can still order the old style components it your choice when the time comes.

    That being said soem of my opinions will not be right as to why Triumph changed them. I am not privy to the engineers to pick their brains. This is just for help and thought so take what you need and leave the rest.
    It shpould also be noted that soem onf the pictures have been copied from other Captians and I am thankful for their pictures I give all of them credit whether I mention them or not. Also anyone who wants to copy mine is welcome to as this site and other sites are for helping fellow captians. any questions I will be happy to answer what ever I can even if it is just my opinion.
     
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  5. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    Ok, Sal called with some clutch questions and I think most of my pictures here diapered during the site upgrade a few years ago.
    Therefore, I thought I would revive this thread and add some pictures and findings.

    Sal has an older bike I think 05 and after his lifter piece failure I mentioned to him that he might as well update to the newer style clutch components. Of course, his dealer/parts department told him it was not possible. To which I stated he should contact people like NM Rocket and I think Trirocket3 aka Les, as I believe both had 05 styles clutch components and made the switch. It should also be noted that Homobre and my Brother Perds updated the older style lock up clutch to receive the newer style roller bearing and lifter piece.

    I can see why Sal's dealer did not think the parts would fit, as not many people know about it. In addition, when you call the dealer you give him the make, model, and year of the beast, which he pulls up the part diagram and quotes the parts and prices. Most likely, the parts person is not a tech. and the techs install what components were made and ordered for that particular year and model.

    So let us start with the differences and we might as well start from the beginning. The Clutch Basket, are they the same between the early models 04, 05 and the newer style fitted in 06 and up. Both Par Larsson and Brembo exploded there clutch baskets hitting them hard with high boost turbochargers. Par had the echo cycle kit and still has it while Brembo had a kit made by a mechanic meaning non-purchasable kit one off. Below is a look at the catastrophic failures that occurred.

    Brembos wadded up components

    [​IMG]

    Pars echo cycle kit hitting 300NM/ 221 ft-lb’s of torque of destruction.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, the major problem was the destruction of the rivet post securing the cast aluminum basket to the backlash eliminator (gear) and the Primary gear

    As seen on the back of this Billet forged MTC basket.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    The Backlash eliminator is the gear between the basket and the primary gear. These two gears have heavy springs between them, which allows the basket to absorb shock delivered between the crank gear and the tranny. The spring’s compresses at different intervals do to the different compression force applied to them. First the lighter pressure spring collapse and then the heavier pressure springs which are colored different and visibly larger in wire diameter. In working with MTC, so they could design the billet basket I sent a 07-basket assembly there for comparison. We were interested in whether one basket could be designed and used on all model rockets. The results were yes the only difference was the plates holding the gears. The early models plates were .030" thinner then the newer models. The extra material did not change the overall thickness of the gears when assembled meaning the extra material was on the inside between them. Thus, the overall standing height of the basket remained the same for both complete assemblies. The thrust washer between the basket and the tranny shaft were the same as were the oil pump drive holes. Brembo sent MTC a new basket assembly and MTC first noted when drilling out the rivets in the new basket that the rivet spun. Meaning they were not crushed enough. This was considered dangerous as it could allow the basket to move on the gears and lessen the ability of the springs to absorb shock. This in both cases mangled the clutches in both bikes.

    MTC uses larger rivets and will install the basket on both style of gears Old and New. Depending on your horsepower, I would always send them the newer style if you can afford it. As there must be a reason why Triumph updated the basket. Just like Triumph updated some parts in the transmission. I cannot tell you if the 06 and 07 silver motors are leftover 04 and 05 painted blocks or complete engine assemblies. Nor can I state whether they have the newer style Basket or not.
    Now let us move outward I have not seen or heard of any difference in the fibers and steels inside the basket. I suspect not because the MTC fibers fit all Rockets. The end of the tranny shafts input are identical as with the tranny internals with the exception of the second gear cluster and a Belleville washer that is changed in the update kit. I think and am only guessing that the Belleville washer are boughten by the pound as with most washers you buy in bulk. I think part of the problem is with the transmitions could partly be from a batch of Belleville they bought from the manufacturer were thinner and were missed in the Quality Assurance function at the manufactures end or some of the other Belleville washer used by Triumph are of different thickness. I am betting on the QA function of the manufacture dropped the ball or sense only random samples were measured some thin ones got by. This most likely also happened during the first article inspection at Triumph as not every washer is checked and when they performed the first article inspection the batch they had were in tolerance. Just guessing on this one. The other changes in the second gear cluster removing or eliminating the six or so drive dogs changed to three. This along with a Inside diameter change on the driven half of the cluster were harder to mesh at speed especially if the spacing was loose from a washer being too thin is what added up to the gears failing and rounding off the drive dogs. I have a 06 and 05 Rocket the 05 has 37,000 miles the 06 has 60,000 miles the 05 does not have the update and the 06 had to have it installed. Of course, the 06 has a lot more horsepower than any other Rocket Thanks to Bob Carpenter, Art DiLarso of carpenter Racing, and Richard Albans of TTS performance. Therefore, I recommend anyone seeking high horse power should make sure his or her tranny has had the update done. I have heard of captains getting a great deal on their Rocket only to find out after a few miles that it jumps/skips out of second gear.

    Moving out further.
    Over the first 3 years it is known Triumph made dimensional changes the clutch actuating components i.e. lifter piece and pressure plates. Pictured below is the older style first.

    The old style pressure plate and needle roller bearing with thrust washer. Note the thrust washer goes against the pressure plate and then the needle bearing.

    [​IMG]
    Next is the old style lifter piece.

    [​IMG]

    Note the large thrust washer built into the lifter piece. This goes up against the needle bearing and the wavy washer on the inward side of it. I am not sure if it was added to the older style lifter piece in the picture as they started making changes or not. I am sure it is used on the newer style lifter piece 06 and up. In my opinion, it serves two purposes. One is it allows the lifter piece to have a gap in the back between the tranny shaft and the lifter piece so a better flow of oil can come out of the shaft lubricating the pressure plate and needle bearings as well as the newer roller bearings.
    Now as we, move on to the newer style pressure plate and lifter piece I must not I do not believe the lifter shaft design has ever been changed except the heavy duty one Wayne Tripp offers.

    New style lifter piece that I use no matter what they say I order this one and have only had one failure. This occurred when my inner clutch hub exploded from excessive Horsepower and torque.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a comparison of the lifter piece I order and the ones that came in the 06 and 07 engines I have. The one I use is on top
    [​IMG]

    The one I use on the left in both pictures

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    The one I use in the lifter piece

    [​IMG]

    The one that came in the 06 and 07 engines I have

    [​IMG]

    The lifter piece in the new style roller bearing

    [​IMG]

    The lifter piece roller bearing along with the new style pressure plate

    [​IMG]

    Too many pictures so I will reply withthe rest. Maybe Mr. Owl has the ability to put them on one post if not see next post.



    I should also mention that I noticed when I blew my inner hub which is the same hub in all rockets had OEM clutch spring bolts which did not go all the way into the strong base of the hub. I feel this was a weak link waiting to cause more grief. Below is a picture of the OEM bolt placed next to the spring tower you can see the bolt stops just above the fillet radius instead of going all the way into the base of the hub.

    [​IMG]

    Below is a picture of the OEM clutch spring bolt up against a vernier caliper set to the length of the spring tower down to the bottom of the hub base.

    [​IMG]

    The bolts are a little over 15.875 mm short. Below is a picture of the new 316 marine stainless bolts I use installed so you can see how far the go into the hub. I also ground the heads of the OEM bolts so I could use the OEM washers which are larger diameter the standard washers. I drilled them to 6mm and installed them

    [​IMG]

    Now I always state this clutch free play is critical without it your **** will **** up.

    The way I monitor mine is pictured below

    With the clutch lever in as normal, you can see the adjusting end is up against the clutch lever

    [​IMG]

    I check the free play by pulling the cable sheath to check the free play

    [​IMG]

    You can see the gap between the cable sheath and the adjusting Ferrell.

    Blow is how the manual shows to check it

    [​IMG]

    Both ways work but some people have a hard time doing it the way the manual states. Also on another note with free play, the lifter piece may rattle a little especially id the wavy washer is old and compressed some. Some people think that adjusting the cable stops the rattle and they are right even after the lifter shaft or lifter piece wears or brakes prematurely the rattle is not there until you repair everything and set the free play right.

    Oh, I also have a new clutch hub tester if anyone wants to borrow it. I got it from Ruzzle
     
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  8. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    Oh, I also have a new clutch hub tester if anyone wants to borrow it. I got it from Ruzzle

    [​IMG]

    If you ever need the special Triumph tool to remove the hub and do not want to spend the money you can easily make one from old steels and fibers. I did this one for a fellow Captain in Michigan.

    First the triumph one.

    [​IMG]

    Now the home made one

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    my return spring mod. I eliminated the one on the lifter shaft and changed to external. like below

    [​IMG]

    Ace Hardware is where I bought the spring.
    I did this because if one winds the internal spring to much on assembly it grabs the end of the lifter shaft which also can snap it or tighten up to much screwing your free play feel up.
    oh and here is the clutch pack including the MTC Billet forged Basket

    in thr picture below you can see the longer bolts do not change anything in the front.

    [​IMG]

    I hope this helps Sal and you can call me anytime if you need clearer explanations!
     
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  9. TOMCAT

    TOMCAT Rage against the machine

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    Really appreciated Warp .
     
  10. warp9.9

    warp9.9 Pocałuj mnie w dupę

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    No problem Tom Cat and to add to this I just recieve a 2011 rocket touring clutch assembly I bought off the internet with only 14,000 miles. The larger lifter piece I was refering to is in it. so it would seem at least the touring clutch assembly has made the change over. I cannot speak for the roadster yet as I have not seen one. I bought this to update my 05 if and when I have to open her up. Might be a while before I stage 1 her. right now I am preparing to do a different Kamelon paint on a extra set of tins I have laying around for her.
     
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