Very strang starting issue

[BigNorm]

Wasn't there an issue with lithium batteries where you had to leave it on for a minute or so to let the battery heat up?

 

[coolrocket]

So I have a 2005 Triumph rocket 3 with a strange issue. I live in Georgia, so temps are nice and warm. This is a inherited issue as the bike was passed to me from my father. I have a ambient temperature starting issue. The bike will start and run with no issue as long as the temperature is above 85 degrees. In the mornings when temperatures are below 85 the bike will not start (turn over but not fire up). I have to take a space heater and place it on the foot peg just below the ignition coils for 20 mins to get the bike to start. My first thought was ignition coils so I replaced them as well as plugs and wires. The problem still persist. I have went through and cleaned all grounds electrical connections and sensors that I could find with no resolve. I put in a anti gravity lithium battery with more than enough CCA to turn this beast over. The bike lived a the triumph dealer when my father had it. Triumph replaced the brain as a last ditch effort to fix the problem with still no resolve. Keep in mind once the bike fires up it does great the rest of the day with no issue. But there is something about a cold start that it is not fond of. I am leaning a voltage issue as the bike is very sluggish turning over. Once the heat is applied it is still sluggish but fires up. Once the bike is warm and you start it she turns over very quick like it should. Any suggestions would be amazing!

Living in California I found out as the original battery got older the bike would not start in the morning 7-8 when it was colder but by 10-12 when it got warmer it would start first time, it did this four or five days in row then I changed the battery and haven't any problems since. The original battery lasted me six years which is a major accomplishment on it's own with these battery's.

 

[barbagris]

Wasn't there an issue with lithium batteries where you had to leave it on for a minute or so to let the battery heat up?

Depends which Lithium battery chemistry.

 

[BigNorm]

Depends which Lithium battery chemistry.

I think @Boog had this issue.

 

[barbagris]

I think @Boog had this issue.

It's not an ISSUE per se. I use Lithiums on both bikes. One (a commercial brand) is the temp affected chemistry. The other (I made myself so know exactly what is inside) is not.
The one made with A123Systems LiFePO4 cells works - the other well it works fine in Spain, it is a bit of a PITA at my mums if it's chilly.

 

[Bigjaype]

It's not an ISSUE per se. I use Lithiums on both bikes. One (a commercial brand) is the temp affected chemistry. The other (I made myself so know exactly what is inside) is not.
The one made with A123Systems LiFePO4 cells works - the other well it works fine in Spain, it is a bit of a PITA at my mums if it's chilly.

@barbagris Did you have to make any changes to the charging system to use the lithium battery?

 

[barbagris]

@barbagris Did you have to make any changes to the charging system to use the lithium battery?

On the R3 no.

On the 40 year old Guzzi the very old mechanical regulator and somewhat antiquated alternator design had issues getting the volts up (anyway!). Fitted a different regulator which allows me to adjust voltage targets (within reason). I would have done this had I stayed Lead Acid - eventually.

Modern alternators charge at higher volts already.

I know of VERY few commercial "Lithium" starter batteries that openly state they use A123Systems cells.
LiFePO4 chemistry is the acceptable base line - If it just says "Lithium-Ion" it most probably is NOT baseline.
But A123 cells go the extra mile and are designed to "dump" power fast.

This said if you live where it seldom drops below 10°C where your bike sleeps - you will not have an issue.

A123 cells are NOT cheap.

You would be best off (imo) with a 4S4P battery. 16 cells at about 10Euros each that's before you solder, add a BMS and make it look pretty and short-proof. I would now simply ask i-tecc to make me one. 240Euros.

A 4S3P would do the job - and a 2S4P might on a good day. But if you are going that small - leave a lead acid in and carry a 4S1P booster in you jacket pocket.

 

[Bigjaype]

On the R3 no.

On the 40 year old Guzzi the very old mechanical regulator and somewhat antiquated alternator design had issues getting the volts up (anyway!). Fitted a different regulator which allows me to adjust voltage targets (within reason). I would have done this had I stayed Lead Acid - eventually.

Modern alternators charge at higher volts already.

I know of VERY few commercial "Lithium" starter batteries that openly state they use A123Systems cells.
LiFePO4 chemistry is the acceptable base line - If it just says "Lithium-Ion" it most probably is NOT baseline.
But A123 cells go the extra mile and are designed to "dump" power fast.

This said if you live where it seldom drops below 10°C where your bike sleeps - you will not have an issue.

A123 cells are NOT cheap.

You would be best off (imo) with a 4S4P battery. 16 cells at about 10Euros each that's before you solder, add a BMS and make it look pretty and short-proof. I would now simply ask i-tecc to make me one. 240Euros.

A 4S3P would do the job - and a 2S4P might on a good day. But if you are going that small - leave a lead acid in and carry a 4S1P booster in you jacket pocket.

Thanks for the detailed response...I may start a little project. I have some contacts for batteries here in Oz. But even at those prices, it's not ridiculously expensive!

 

[BigNorm]

@barbagris
I was thinking about piggy backing a lithium battery for powering a stereo system eventually. Is using 2 different types of batteries a bad idea?

 

[barbagris]

Thanks for the detailed response...I may start a little project. I have some contacts for batteries here in Oz. But even at those prices, it's not ridiculously expensive!

The shame is - A123 used to make some bigger 8aH "dumping" cells. Should have bought more when I could.

Norm - OK there are pluses and minuses to mixing. I know Scott (@warp9.9 ) runs a mix. My experience (here) was that the Lead Acid dried out VERY FAST. It gets hot here.
Equally there are STARTER batteries and NON-STARTER batteries. I would NOT use a starter grade battery for a stereo. tbh in that case I would not use a Li (except for weight considerations).

I would rather suggest a solution much like is used by the Caravan folk.
A split charge system feeding a second battery of the same type. How many watts stereo?