Questions about Tunes for Roadster with TORS

[ricochet]

Hey Guys!

Just trying to educate myself here. I recently had a set of TORS pipes installed on my bone stock 2012 R3 Roadster.

When I got the bike back from the dealership, they had loaded the 20355 (I think) map on the bike. The bike ran unbelievably smooth and wonderful, but there were 2 things I noticed about it that I didn't like very much

1: The throttle felt "soft" as in fast movements like WOT or releasing the throttle were really gradual, I am imagining that the secondary throttles were smoothing out the throttle response. If I tried accelerating really fast it would not be instantaneous but rather just smoothly applied which I wasn't looking for

2: Really, really terrible back fire out the exhaust when engine braking in 2nd gear only. If I am at speed and go from 4th or 3rd into 2nd it backfires all the way until I stop, but other gears dont do this. Why does this happen? My friend riding behind me said he saw orange flames shooting out my left pipe. ​

Then I sent an email to Hanso asking for a modified tune for the bike. He sent me a tune and it uploaded to my bike fine, but I have some newer issues now that I am curious about (Hanso I am not upset with you, I am just trying to learn more about this stuff!)

So with the new Tune Hanso gave me, now the folllowing is happening

1: Instant throttle response, I mean really fast, but sometimes there is hesitation when rolling the throttle open fast.. its like gas cuts out or spark is retarded for a moment and then it flies

2: Rough Idle, when starting the bike up... it idles harshly but eventually after warming up smooths out dramatically.

3: At certain RPMS, sometimes the bike cuts out. The last time I remember this happening It was around 2700rpms and the bike would do this ------___----------_-----______------ (Top lines being regular engine rate, underscores when it cuts out). I did refuel at another gas station and haven't seen this happen again yet.

4: Absolutely no backfiring at all in 2nd gear, which is pretty cool.​

Can someone explain what is happening in these situations? Hanso did get back to me sayign something about raising the Idle and modifying the F-L tables but I would like to know what these F-L tables do and how it will help. I may consider just going back to the original Triumph tune if I can't get the bike to go as smoothly as it did before, but for sure with the "de-restricted" tune it feels a lot more powerful but now lacks in the smooth power delivery I had originally.

Thanks guys!!

 

[EasTexRIII]

I don't know about #1 & #3, But I do know you can set the Idle Rpm's - need to set that at 900-950 Rpm's to have adequate oil pressure at idle

 

[dougl]

I don't know about #1 & #3, But I do know you can set the Idle Rpm's - need to set that at 900-950 Rpm's to have adequate oil pressure at idle

Backfiring in the exhaust can happen in any gear and depends only on engine load which increases with engine breaking. So you can get it with any downshift or rapid deceleration. This results from a lean condition where the gas/air mixture ignites in the exhaust rather than in the cylinder. I had this problem big time with a full Jardine exhaust and triple filters. I had a PCIII installed and had it dyno tuned. The tune was great except it exploded, not just popped. I noticed the tuner put large negative trims (less fuel) at zero throttle. I've heard this strategy for getting rid of popping but it didn't work for me. Most tuners and Dynojet, recommend adding fuel at zero TP. So I added 15% more fuel from 1700 to 4700 RPM at zero TP and the popping went away.

The L tables supply fuel as a function of manifold pressure (MAP) and rpm for low throttle position (TP) which for the stock tor tune (20355) is below 31% between 2521 and 3775 rpm. Backfiring occurs at zero throttle, so it's using the L tables. To get rid of the popping, you have to add some fuel in the L table columns corresponding to the MAP pressure and RPMs where the popping occurs, which you don't know unless you can log it, at zero throttle. Comparing 20355 and 20352 (stock exhaust), you can see more fuel in some cells of the L tables in the low pressure (220 mb) columns in the 20355 tune, so Triumph tried to address this. The F tables are for higher TP and supply fuel based on TP versus RPM. These are called the main fuel tables.

You should also make sure there are no leaks at any of the exhaust connections. This can cause decel popping.

So, it looks like Hanso's tune got rid of the popping but there are other issues. I'm sure Hanso's tune derestricts the power by opening the secondaries 100% at all TP and RPM. Also, he probably disables the O2 sensor, which has the good effect of reducing the decel popping but could have other effects like less smoothness at low TP. I've switched back and forth a million times. During winter, when it ran rich, I'd enable the O2 sensor for smoothness and because it was richer anyway since it's freezing here, and it didn't pop as much. In summer, it ran leaner because of the extreme heat and I'd disable the O2 sensor to reduce popping.

In the stock tunes, the O2 sensor is always enabled so it's likely to adapt and lean the fuel out at low engine load. This causes popping. You're probably aware that the later model R3Rs are "derestricted". All they did was open the secondaries 100% at all loads except at the high end. You can see this by comparing your tune (20355) with the later 20776 for tors. The only difference between these tunes is in the secondaries table. The fueling and timing are identical. All you need to do to derestrict the stock 20355, according to Triumph's definition of derestrict is to copy the secondaries table from 20776 into 20355. You might try this just to see how it runs.

And: check for leaks.

 

[ricochet]

Backfiring in the exhaust can happen in any gear and depends only on engine load which increases with engine breaking. So you can get it with any downshift or rapid deceleration. This results from a lean condition where the gas/air mixture ignites in the exhaust rather than in the cylinder. I had this problem big time with a full Jardine exhaust and triple filters. I had a PCIII installed and had it dyno tuned. The tune was great except it exploded, not just popped. I noticed the tuner put large negative trims (less fuel) at zero throttle. I've heard this strategy for getting rid of popping but it didn't work for me. Most tuners and Dynojet, recommend adding fuel at zero TP. So I added 15% more fuel from 1700 to 4700 RPM at zero TP and the popping went away.

The L tables supply fuel as a function of manifold pressure (MAP) and rpm for low throttle position (TP) which for the stock tor tune (20355) is below 31% between 2521 and 3775 rpm. Backfiring occurs at zero throttle, so it's using the L tables. To get rid of the popping, you have to add some fuel in the L table columns corresponding to the MAP pressure and RPMs where the popping occurs, which you don't know unless you can log it, at zero throttle. Comparing 20355 and 20352 (stock exhaust), you can see more fuel in some cells of the L tables in the low pressure (220 mb) columns in the 20355 tune, so Triumph tried to address this. The F tables are for higher TP and supply fuel based on TP versus RPM. These are called the main fuel tables.

You should also make sure there are no leaks at any of the exhaust connections. This can cause decel popping.

So, it looks like Hanso's tune got rid of the popping but there are other issues. I'm sure Hanso's tune derestricts the power by opening the secondaries 100% at all TP and RPM. Also, he probably disables the O2 sensor, which has the good effect of reducing the decel popping but could have other effects like less smoothness at low TP. I've switched back and forth a million times. During winter, when it ran rich, I'd enable the O2 sensor for smoothness and because it was richer anyway since it's freezing here, and it didn't pop as much. In summer, it ran leaner because of the extreme heat and I'd disable the O2 sensor to reduce popping.

In the stock tunes, the O2 sensor is always enabled so it's likely to adapt and lean the fuel out at low engine load. This causes popping. You're probably aware that the later model R3Rs are "derestricted". All they did was open the secondaries 100% at all loads except at the high end. You can see this by comparing your tune (20355) with the later 20776 for tors. The only difference between these tunes is in the secondaries table. The fueling and timing are identical. All you need to do to derestrict the stock 20355, according to Triumph's definition of derestrict is to copy the secondaries table from 20776 into 20355. You might try this just to see how it runs.

And: check for leaks.

I am fairly certain that the Fueling and Timing Hanso added for me were from the 4th gear and copied to the 1-3 gears. Is there any chance this may cause any weird issues as well?

 

[dougl]

I am fairly certain that the Fueling and Timing Hanso added for me were from the 4th gear and copied to the 1-3 gears. Is there any chance this may cause any weird issues as well?

Fueling doesn't vary by gear in these tunes. All of the custom tunes dating from the first Tuneboy tune for the first R3's with TORs copied the timing from 4th and 5th (I3) into the tables for the two lower gears (I1 and I2) to advance the timing in the lower gears. The original Triumph tune for TORs (20226) also does this. I don't believe this would cause any problems.

 

[ricochet]

Ok gonna try put on the new tune I just got and see how she goes. I can always put the original tune back since Ive got a backup

Edit: New tune successfully downloaded onto the ecu and I am actually really pleased with how much better it was even on that short ride. It actually pulls harder now that it doesn't hesitate.

I'll try it out for a few more days and see how it goes. Thanks again Hanso

 

[dougl]

I don't know about #1 & #3, But I do know you can set the Idle Rpm's - need to set that at 900-950 Rpm's to have adequate oil pressure at idle

When the R3 came out, they set the idle to 750.After people had issues with that, they raised it to 850.