Braking problem, need help/suggestions please

As I understand it, Silicone brake fluid is not recommended for abs brake systems for some reason, unless they have changed some spec on it now.

That's my understanding as well, at least with Harley's ABS. Not sure if the Triumph ABS system is different? I've also read that non-silicone and silicone brake fluids do not play well together. I read that on the internet so it must be true. Maybe/hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in and verify.
 
@albertaduke

OK

I needed a coffee and to collect thoughts.

This is all trial and error experience - And I have bled "unbleedable" bikes thus. It also works on Combined Braking Systems (like old Guzzis)- I've never had a bike with ABS so cannot say.

Some of the old tricks spouted on the "never wrong" internet are correct for rubber hoses - but R3's come with PTFE lined hoses and so they do not always work.
I have fitted PTFE hoses since the early 80's on ALL my bikes pretty much from day one.

In damp climates I also PREFER silicone based DOT5 fluids. There will be nay-sayers, I have 35 years-plus of ignoring them.
I have many reasons, but mainly (now) because I have proven most of them WRONG.

The key to "home bleeding" is to make sure that any bubbles (and there are ALWAYS bubbles) will rise all the way to the fluid reservoir uninhibited.

Bubbles are crafty buggers and will stick to any anomaly in the circuit that affords them traction. This can be dirt or a mark in the tube liner surface.
But PTFE hoses generally have a nice smooth inner face. I have seen an issue where the hose inners were marked in the extrusion process - but it is RARE.

99% of bikes have handlebar grips that are lower at the end than where the hose junction is.

In general therefore - I have found that by having the bike on it's side stand and on full left lock the fluid reservoir is at the top of the circuit and that bubbles rising from the left disc do not try and go into the right disk circuit. Rears are occasionally more tricky but the upwards route is key.

Step 1 is to bleed as you would normally. Work from the bottom upwards. I ALWAYS use the bleed screws AND do a banjo bolt bleed - very lightly loosen the banjo and force liquid out (air and shyte can and will collect in the banjo grooves) - the advantage here of DOT5 is is it is not damaging to finishes (like paint). But timely application of a paper towel is equally as good.

Double Banjos are a serious bubble magnet.

If Step one works - all is good with the world. But step 2 & maybe 3 will get your levers rock hard (if you so wish).

Step 2 requires patience. And if you have anything like Barkbusters fitted - remove them. Remove reservoir top. With the palm of your hand on the ball end of the lever (or toe of foot lever) very slowly push the lever until you see a small pulse of disturbance in the fluid. This marks the point at which the system pressurises. On some bikes you can actually just feel this - but on most you need to see it.

Pump the lever VERY fast 4 or 5 times using your palm and release (slowly) - you almost certainly will get a back rush of fluid - have a rag ready. Wait a bit - now very slowly push the lever back to that system pressure point - this will almost always result in a whoosh of bubbles.

Just repeat until (usually quite suddenly) the lever is firm and no more bubbles exit.

Step 3 is both an option and sometimes necessary on very recalcitrant systems - though usually ime due to shyte trapping some bubbles. You pump and then keep the lever depressed a goodly while - often you'll see "tied back" quoted. My personal opinion is that if you need Step3 then you may well should be considering clean (new) components. After a while under pressure the bubbles usually dislodge and then exit with the slow pressure point purge.

If Step 3 does not work 1st time - consider replacing parts - and tbh if you have to go down the rebuild route - rebuild everything.

As some here know - I gift some of my free time each week at a mate's bike workshop. Despite them having vacuum bleeders and even a bottom up pressure bleeder, there are times when the above is still required.

Now I know others will have their own methods. But this has NEVER failed me.
I will try this as I have an 06 that has had a soft lever since I have had it But the brake work fine on operation .
So I have just fitted a set of Hell pipes and was not sure I have all the air out as the lever was no better I then tried the push the pistons back method and it worked
this just confirms to me that there is air in there some where right
 
@albertaduke

OK

I needed a coffee and to collect thoughts.

This is all trial and error experience - And I have bled "unbleedable" bikes thus. It also works on Combined Braking Systems (like old Guzzis)- I've never had a bike with ABS so cannot say.

Some of the old tricks spouted on the "never wrong" internet are correct for rubber hoses - but R3's come with PTFE lined hoses and so they do not always work.
I have fitted PTFE hoses since the early 80's on ALL my bikes pretty much from day one.

In damp climates I also PREFER silicone based DOT5 fluids. There will be nay-sayers, I have 35 years-plus of ignoring them.
I have many reasons, but mainly (now) because I have proven most of them WRONG.

The key to "home bleeding" is to make sure that any bubbles (and there are ALWAYS bubbles) will rise all the way to the fluid reservoir uninhibited.

Bubbles are crafty buggers and will stick to any anomaly in the circuit that affords them traction. This can be dirt or a mark in the tube liner surface.
But PTFE hoses generally have a nice smooth inner face. I have seen an issue where the hose inners were marked in the extrusion process - but it is RARE.

99% of bikes have handlebar grips that are lower at the end than where the hose junction is.

In general therefore - I have found that by having the bike on it's side stand and on full left lock the fluid reservoir is at the top of the circuit and that bubbles rising from the left disc do not try and go into the right disk circuit. Rears are occasionally more tricky but the upwards route is key.

Step 1 is to bleed as you would normally. Work from the bottom upwards. I ALWAYS use the bleed screws AND do a banjo bolt bleed - very lightly loosen the banjo and force liquid out (air and shyte can and will collect in the banjo grooves) - the advantage here of DOT5 is is it is not damaging to finishes (like paint). But timely application of a paper towel is equally as good.

Double Banjos are a serious bubble magnet.

If Step one works - all is good with the world. But step 2 & maybe 3 will get your levers rock hard (if you so wish).

Step 2 requires patience. And if you have anything like Barkbusters fitted - remove them. Remove reservoir top. With the palm of your hand on the ball end of the lever (or toe of foot lever) very slowly push the lever until you see a small pulse of disturbance in the fluid. This marks the point at which the system pressurises. On some bikes you can actually just feel this - but on most you need to see it.

Pump the lever VERY fast 4 or 5 times using your palm and release (slowly) - you almost certainly will get a back rush of fluid - have a rag ready. Wait a bit - now very slowly push the lever back to that system pressure point - this will almost always result in a whoosh of bubbles.

Just repeat until (usually quite suddenly) the lever is firm and no more bubbles exit.

Step 3 is both an option and sometimes necessary on very recalcitrant systems - though usually ime due to shyte trapping some bubbles. You pump and then keep the lever depressed a goodly while - often you'll see "tied back" quoted. My personal opinion is that if you need Step3 then you may well should be considering clean (new) components. After a while under pressure the bubbles usually dislodge and then exit with the slow pressure point purge.

If Step 3 does not work 1st time - consider replacing parts - and tbh if you have to go down the rebuild route - rebuild everything.

As some here know - I gift some of my free time each week at a mate's bike workshop. Despite them having vacuum bleeders and even a bottom up pressure bleeder, there are times when the above is still required.

Now I know others will have their own methods. But this has NEVER failed me.
@barbagris I see that is quite a way I did not know but will follow and report results maybe lots of us have had that problem and will follow suit. thanks again
 
My bikes like this too works well but is soft and comes close to the bars on even the longest lever setting.

Pushing the pads back and pumping them back works for a while.

I got a vacuum pump you can use for brakes bleeding, fuel injection testing etc and it works well for bleeding this imporved things but I was still convinced there was some air trapped.

Eventually I replaced the brake likes with Hel items and ran two separate lines, one to each slave cylinder directly from the master cylinder connection, this helped the most out of all the changes.
 
Eventually I replaced the brake likes with Hel items and ran two separate lines, one to each slave cylinder directly from the master cylinder connection, this helped the most out of all the changes.
When I changed my bars and needed longer hoses - this is what I did. Mine are Goodridge - not Hel - but because I have always used Goodridge.
 
hi don't know what types of pads you have in at the minute, but i had in over the last 2500mls 3 sets of different pads.
my brake problem was the same as your's
cleaned the pistons, as previously mentioned
so i renewed the fluid
bled the system normally & used a pressure system , all to no avail
renewed the master cylinder rubbers & re bled
even tried shimming under the heel of the actuator & the end of the plunger in the master cylinder - lacluster result !
then started trying different pads
always used EBC HH pads in the fireblade & the mille - great in both of those, (shyte in the rocket) same with goldfren AD 106 - same , & of course the original pads that the bike was bought with !!
talking with the John, who tunes my bike ,he suggested i use BENDIX MRR124 pads , apparrently all the lads with hyabusas & kawasakis , who run in the 200mph club at Elvington, swear by them !!!!!
so i bought some , fitted them & guess what ............ brakes are as gud as they shud be !!!!!!!
so there ya go
shiny side up boys !!
 
@barbagris I see that is quite a way I did not know but will follow and report results maybe lots of us have had that problem and will follow suit. thanks again
I have done the procedure as @barbagris describe either i did not do it right or I am in trouble, going to repeat that procedure again. next I am thinking of riding a bit cautiously round the block and see if the road bumps help dislodge the recalcitrant bubbles before rebuilding everything and I do not look forward to that.
 
on my front brakes (i have never bleed them my bad) and the handle got a lot of travel now the dealer changed my front tire and when they finished it had a lot of play so they told me they bleed it three times but it didn't help,
i think what is happening is the front calipers r sticking requiring more fluid to get them to push the brake pads farther in.
i think that the only way to cure this problem is to clean the caliper pistons/bore.
as i recall some said they moved them and solved the prob.
 
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