Question for Mapping Experts

[Jamie]

My R3 will be custom painted this Winter. All the black CF will remain unpainted, while the tank and upper fairing get painted black with "Blue Ice" flames. Might overlay some blue ice flames on the CF too. /quote]


Compliments. One way to go about ALL the CF is to spray it with clearcoat à la Palatina, but MIXED with a bit of pearlescent "blue ice" lacquer (vs add'l "flames" ?) .

The end result? : CF would still be stating its unique visual ID, but the whole bike would gain in aesthetical... er... integrity.

Harmony is the word I was actually looking for.

It also subliminally addresses your apropos ref. to the "other" forum. Jamie

 

[goodfellow]

the paint

hombre,
that is drop dead gorgeous , can't wait to see the rest! she's gonna look sharp! are you going to do just fairing,tank and side panels ? or the whole bike? it's a difficult call what with the nice work that moto-plan shows in their finished product ......
better you than me on that one.

greg.

 

[Sidecar Flip]

Harmony is the word I was actually looking for.

International harmony no less.......

 

[goodfellow]

hombre,
i saw your reply from jaime. guess i need to type faster! .

keep up the good work.
greg

 

[goodfellow]

snow mobile cross over

s.c.,
will that neat stuff work with keihin e.c.u.? sounds interesting...

greg

 

[goodfellow]

blue ice flame overlay

hombre,
the more i look at it, the better i see your idea of tying different textures with the blue ice flames. it's perfect......

greg

 

[Silver Bullet]

Cylinder Balance

Hombre:

You have motivated me to think back as far as my feeble mind will allow to my drag racing days. My Super Gas car had telemetry gathering devices on it to include EGT sensors. (Exhaust Gas Temp) The object of the EGT was to get the cylinder tune balance as close to each other as possible and maintain about 1350 degrees EGT with the sensor set a specific distance in each header tube from the exhaust port of the cylinder head. (as i recall it was 1.5"). As a sidenote: To accomplish this I learned to cross jet carbs with different size jets to get the EGT balance I wanted. In my opinion, that is exactly why the fuel charts are different for each injected cylinder.

I also ran an O2 sensor in each header collector for reference to AF mixture. In my case I wanted to run the engine for maximum HP output at 7000 RPM. That is where I would tune too by changing jetting, intake manifolds, etc, to get the EGT I wanted depending on the corrected altitude of the track location.

In the case of the tripple cylinder fuel injected bike and the mapping of the TuneBoy, I would think the proper thing to do would be to get an equal length tube header set up, put an EGT into each port, run the O2 sensor to check overall AF mixture. As with the Race Car you will have to do a good deal of development and tuning to determine where you want the engine to perform in the RPM range for HP. Do you want to tune it for midrange RPM operation or all out maximum HP at 7000 or what? NOTE: It is my experience that the header tubing size, camshaft profile, and timing all move the torque curve around on the engine.

Flip may be correct, that telemetry gathering information from other engine types may be available but will need to be fitted for your use. I would think that snowmobile EGT gauges would work very well for this application. I do know that if you wish to get optimum performance you have to have the information as to what the engine is doing at any given point regarding changes to the tuneup. That information will allow a sound fact based alalysis to be made.

Sorry I got carried away...thanks for the memories...

Interesting Post...Thanks SB.

 

[hombre]

The pleasure's all mine, SB. It's always nice to discuss these things with those with real depth of experience.

Question... since mixture effects EGT, how to tune for EGT and A/F separately?

You might be interested to know that I'm running vastly different cams than stock with the R3 supercharger, and tuning for a significantly different A/F range. FA induction is a completely different beast... but worth it!

 

[Silver Bullet]

IMHO to tune to the correct EGT was most important (method) because controlling the combustion process gave me the direct knowledge that the events happening inside the combustion chamber were working within the limits of the fuel type and not damaging parts and was in fact, balanced across the scope of eight cylinders all trying to work together and produce maximum efficiency. I was satisfyed with the knowledge that if the EGT was running from 1330 to 1360 degrees on each tube (at maximum RPM with 114 octane race fuel and 20% ethanol mix), I was getting the maximim combustable energy I could get. Using A/F ratio's is another way to get to the same area in the general tuneup with the acception that it is a numerical ratio as opposed to EGT which is an actual numerical reference to the combustion event (A/F mixture).

I am old school, I learned to tune with EGT and not A/F ratio like is used by many young tuners today. I am not saying that tuning with A/F is not good but rather I am not comfortable with its overall accuracy. I prefered to control the combustion process completely by the way I tuned each cylinder and my quest for making them equal in performance. I had a conversation with one of my mechanics who Dyno tunes fuel injected cars for the drag strip. We discussed the difference between A/F ratios and EGT deciding that A/F for most applications gets you in the general ball park but EGT is exact in its information. Someone who uses EGT is interested in getting maximim performance at all times and under varying atmospheric conditions. Thats Racing.

Sooo..my question to you is. If you are using a recommended A/F mixture that was given to you by the maker of the turbo charger, my interest would be how did he get it? What methods were used to set the initial charting for this application? I would suspect that the charting given you is a very general overview to get you started and still not hurt many parts while you work throught the tune that best fits your useage.

I am simply suggesting that you may need some specific diagnostic tools (EGT) to get the absolute fine tuning done with this bike. You have put a combination together that is apart from the rest of us stock tune guys. You have taken the performance of this machine from the world of natural aspiration to the realm of created atmosphere and performance. I would wonder what effect longevity wise, the supercharger is going to have on "stock" parts like pistons, rods, bearings, etc. Keep us posted on the longevity and progress of your venture and good luck.

During my racing career I thought outside the box alot too...It cost me a lot of money but I enjoyed it.... SB.

 

[hombre]

Actually I agree with you... all the huge supercharged aircraft engines (2500 HP) I have flown have always relied on EGT readings. In fact, I don't believe there were wide-band AF sensors available "back in the day". Also, race engines using ethanol require a totally different AF, so tuning to precise EGT makes much more sense.

The "map" supplied by TTS, the maker of the supercharger kit, was EXTREMELY BASIC, and I highly recommend anyone contemplating installing a supercharger or turbo kit to FIRST install a real time digital wide-band AF indicator (the better ones have data loggers too). DO NOT depend on the kit maker to send you a map that's "close". That's a good way to fry your engine. In my case, having both custom cams and an intercooler, I knew the TTS supplied map would be way off, and immediately modified the tune (map) to bring the AFs into the proper range on start up. More tweaking was done though data logging before even attempting to dyno... the requirements of my bike were TOTALLY different from the TTS supplied map.

Which is another point... the AF range used by NA bike engines (typically 13 range) is too lean for supercharged engine! Because HP is heat, the tremendous increase in HP means a supercharged bike has much more heat to dissapate...and requires an AF in the 12 range.

I'm going to take your suggestion, and add triple EGT probes to my new exhaust system. I really appreciate your experience and very useful advice.

Looks like Westberg will build me a triple EGT gauge with a boost gauge in the bottom (4-way gauge).... sweet.