Nothing like an up- beat riding buddy

Call it "target fixation" or not, but when we get into a situation that we see as dangerous we tend to focus on that danger because our sense of survival tells us to. We all agree that we will go where we are looking & our sense of survival then causes us to ride/drive into the hazard. It is only upon learning this fact that we understand that we have to overcome this natural need to focus on the danger & turn our eyes on to the exit strategy, these guys didn't do this & the result is as we have seen. Yes it is a trait of the inexperienced rider, but many older & experienced riders have never realised or been told of this, I also know riders of some 50 yr's experience who positively deny that counter steering exists, when faced with this mentality it is difficult for them to learn. So whatever an individual wants to call it I don't give a dam, as long as they accept that it does happen & will cause them to ride strait into that foreseen danger.
 
Call it "target fixation" or not, but when we get into a situation that we see as dangerous we tend to focus on that danger because our sense of survival tells us to. We all agree that we will go where we are looking & our sense of survival then causes us to ride/drive into the hazard. It is only upon learning this fact that we understand that we have to overcome this natural need to focus on the danger & turn our eyes on to the exit strategy, these guys didn't do this & the result is as we have seen. Yes it is a trait of the inexperienced rider, but many older & experienced riders have never realised or been told of this, I also know riders of some 50 yr's experience who positively deny that counter steering exists, when faced with this mentality it is difficult for them to learn. So whatever an individual wants to call it I don't give a dam, as long as they accept that it does happen & will cause them to ride strait into that foreseen danger.

I agree the eye to action influence exists , also the scanning for danger is a natural reaction as is locking on to perceived threat, however as a young Recruit one of the first things I was taught was to resist the focusing on one object but to continue scanning whilst maintaining the object in your vision, also the influence of your dominant eye in your ability to spot objects,if you realise it or not when you have more perception when either scanning from left or to right depending on your dominant eye ,once you learn this you slowly scan on the stronger rotation then quickly scan back then repeat, particularly handy on patrol or at an observation post but also life saving when driving or riding, most ex military folks will remember this but it may be of help to others
thus ends the lecture for today:whitstling:
 
To make it worse he was riding a Shadow that should have handled better than a little Harley, IMHO he just froze when he found himself in unfamiliar territory in loose gravel ,

Again, lack of training and experience - rider had no idea what to do.
 
Yes you do @1olbull, you want to start an argument. Okay maybe not but I for one have been taught about target fixation all through my military life. It is why we push so hard for our shipmates on the aircraft carrier to keep their head on a swivel. That is why fighter pilots have to watch everything going on to avoid getting hit by the bad guy coming up on their six while they are fixed on the target ahead.


As a youngster, my dad was trying to teach my mom how to drive, unsuccessfully. One night on a dirt road, a jack rabbit jumped up and started running ahead of us. She started following the rabbit and dad said "stay on your side of the road honey. Don’t follow the rabbit!!!" Too late, she had locked onto the rabbit and as it ran into the bar ditch, so did we. Car ended up on its side.


I found myself off my helicopter on day in Somalia resupplying a platoon of Marines out in the boonies. My helicopter suddenly took flight thus letting me know something bad was about to happen. A quick look see let me know we were getting hit by about 5 or 6 Sammies. I took to ground with a young private next to me. I was armed with my 1911, he had his M-16. A platoon of marines should make quick work of this many skinnies, so I figured I would sit this one out. The Private evidently decided he was to protect me and was focused on the mayhem forward and to our right. He didn’t see the skinny coming from forward left. The skinny shot the canteen hanging on the Private’s side right next to me. (To be fair, I didn't see the Sammie till the first shot). Even after I told the skinny to stop, the young Marine still didn’t know his gear had been hit, nor did he know the skinny was only 20 feet from us. He was too fixed on the action going on with his other buddies.


I for one am a firm believer in target fixation, but I believe it can be trained out of people with time and experience. Motor heads have to learn sometime and hopfully not the hard way.

@Boog, my man!
I shall only offer one example.
NOT to change your mind, but to try and better explain mine.
Visual Expert Human Factors: Is The Moth Effect Real?
 
@Boog, my man!
I shall only offer one example.
NOT to change your mind, but to try and better explain mine.
Visual Expert Human Factors: Is The Moth Effect Real?

I read your study report and find it interesting. It focuses mainly on the “Moth Effect” meaning that we humans fixate on lights and are drawn to them while we drive. It finds this is not the case but does state that when we turn our gaze from forward to either side, we tend to move that direction even when walking; not just when driving or riding.
In the Air Warfare arena, flying is a team sport for sure and all players need to be on their best game in case they need to prod the pilot flying the machine. In a single seat aircraft (or motorcycle for that matter), there is no team to give back-up in case the operator’s focus is off the safe mark. We use the saying: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate to drive the point home. When I talk to my kids about driving or riding, I say Operate, Navigate, Communicate to get the idea across that they need to control their machine at all times, before worrying about the others. One of the quotes from the report says:
The driver factor lies in driver attentional concentration. Attention is a zero-sum game, so the more attention focused on one task, the less available to others. Concentrating attention on a target might reduce attention available to maintaining directional constancy.
The first crash at NAS Fallon I worked after being assigned there was a stellar senior LT flying his F-18. He was the wingman of the TOP GUN CO and was warming up for a bombing derby. The LT was going to deliver a little blue practice bomb onto a simulated anti-aircraft missile site. The tactic calls for a high altitude flight followed by a death defying straight down descent onto the target. Speed will build quickly once the dive begins and the bomb is released directly overhead just before the pilot pulls up. This area above this certain type of weapon is safe for the aircraft as the weapon cannot shoot straight up. However, the pilot was so focused on the target that he lost situational awareness (SA) and was beyond safe pull-out altitude. His lead yelled over the radio, “Eject, EJECT, EJECT!!!” and the LT did. His chute opened just before he hit the ground.
The Accident review Board stated the primary cause of this crash was loss of SA due to target fixation.
For us mortal motorcycle riders, this last quote from the report really does sum it up well I think.
Lastly, the target fixation effect of motorcycle riders may have a different cause from the moth effect in car drivers. When a motorcycle rider fixates away from his heading, he may unconsciously change his body posture to lean in that direction, causing the motorcycle to turn. Motorcycle riders, for example, tend to turn their handlebars more in the direction of a head turn (Heuer & Klein, 2001). Readinger, Chatziastros, Cunningham, Bülthoff. H., & Cutting (2002) investigated whether a posture change could account for the moth effect in car drivers and concluded that it did not. However, this does not rule out the possibility that postural changes may contribute to the moth effect in some circumstances.
Like Jack says, whatever we call it, it happens and we all need to be aware so that we do not further prove it out.
With that said, what beer do you prefer Bull? We should continue this topic in a nicely lit, air-conditioned, one G room where if we do fall down, we only hurt the peanut shells lying about.
 
I read your study report and find it interesting. It focuses mainly on the “Moth Effect” meaning that we humans fixate on lights and are drawn to them while we drive. It finds this is not the case but does state that when we turn our gaze from forward to either side, we tend to move that direction even when walking; not just when driving or riding.
In the Air Warfare arena, flying is a team sport for sure and all players need to be on their best game in case they need to prod the pilot flying the machine. In a single seat aircraft (or motorcycle for that matter), there is no team to give back-up in case the operator’s focus is off the safe mark. We use the saying: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate to drive the point home. When I talk to my kids about driving or riding, I say Operate, Navigate, Communicate to get the idea across that they need to control their machine at all times, before worrying about the others. One of the quotes from the report says:
The driver factor lies in driver attentional concentration. Attention is a zero-sum game, so the more attention focused on one task, the less available to others. Concentrating attention on a target might reduce attention available to maintaining directional constancy.
The first crash at NAS Fallon I worked after being assigned there was a stellar senior LT flying his F-18. He was the wingman of the TOP GUN CO and was warming up for a bombing derby. The LT was going to deliver a little blue practice bomb onto a simulated anti-aircraft missile site. The tactic calls for a high altitude flight followed by a death defying straight down descent onto the target. Speed will build quickly once the dive begins and the bomb is released directly overhead just before the pilot pulls up. This area above this certain type of weapon is safe for the aircraft as the weapon cannot shoot straight up. However, the pilot was so focused on the target that he lost situational awareness (SA) and was beyond safe pull-out altitude. His lead yelled over the radio, “Eject, EJECT, EJECT!!!” and the LT did. His chute opened just before he hit the ground.
The Accident review Board stated the primary cause of this crash was loss of SA due to target fixation.
For us mortal motorcycle riders, this last quote from the report really does sum it up well I think.
Lastly, the target fixation effect of motorcycle riders may have a different cause from the moth effect in car drivers. When a motorcycle rider fixates away from his heading, he may unconsciously change his body posture to lean in that direction, causing the motorcycle to turn. Motorcycle riders, for example, tend to turn their handlebars more in the direction of a head turn (Heuer & Klein, 2001). Readinger, Chatziastros, Cunningham, Bülthoff. H., & Cutting (2002) investigated whether a posture change could account for the moth effect in car drivers and concluded that it did not. However, this does not rule out the possibility that postural changes may contribute to the moth effect in some circumstances.
Like Jack says, whatever we call it, it happens and we all need to be aware so that we do not further prove it out.
With that said, what beer do you prefer Bull? We should continue this topic in a nicely lit, air-conditioned, one G room where if we do fall down, we only hurt the peanut shells lying about.
Make it over here Boog & Bull, and I'm drinking with ya
 
@Boog @captain jack
This is sounding better and better as I happen to enjoy COLD Guinness!
Sadly we are separated by WAY TOO MANY miles!
Perhaps RAA XI this summer???
 
@Boog @captain jack
This is sounding better and better as I happen to enjoy COLD Guinness!
Sadly we are separated by WAY TOO MANY miles!
Perhaps RAA XI this summer???

I'm trying to get to Spokanistan sooner than that Bull. Work had me on the calander this fll then it moved to Dec now to Spring. I should be there for a week of work and I plan on taking the weekend for myself to visit anyone who will sit a spell. Maybe head down to see @RocketRoger and you too if I can.
 
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