Howdy..............
- Thread starter Sightglass
- Start date
Jack, excellent question but I don't think for a minute a technician can answer it correctly and objectively and I don't see triumph as a corporation answering it obliquely either.
Lets see, we have an admission by a certified (I think) Triumph Technician that the valve adjustment is not needed at 10K or even 20K. But yet, the dealers charge for it at 10K nonetheless. It's an interesting scenario. Is supposedly honest and above board local Triumph dealer sticking it right up your exhaust pipe with charges for valve adjustment procedures or just checking the appropriate boxes on the sheet, never performing the work and smiling all the way to the bank along with the proceeds from the over priced Triumph OEM accessories. I have a bad feeling it's the latter in most cases.
Distill it down to this.....You get charged 800 to 1000 bucks for them to check the bike over (you hope), hook up the Triumph Diagnostic Tool and check the EFI and balance the throttle bodies, change the oil and maybe the final drive lube and hopefully wash the bike and fuel it. For between 800 and 1000 bucks. Maybe 250 thou to get a Triumph franchise and floor plan the bikes isn't such a bad investment. The return on service and accessories is phenominal........
Least I forget, I don't want to leave out the kid that might wash your bike before it leaves the dealership taking it out and beating the **** out of it to make sure that all the 'service' was performed correctly.
Then we get to the dealer who makes the comment to Rocky about 'was the 10K valve adjustment performed'? He knows that it has nothing to do with the timing chain rattle, he's not stupid though he knows we are or at least assumes we are. What a way to play cover my ass. This could get very interesting in the least.....read on the next post.....
Right Flip I figured that would scare him away..Just said I wanted his take on It not an extended warranty...Jack
Sightglass
.020 Over
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2007
- Messages
- 26
OK, I'll address a few things here. First off, I am a certified Triumph tech, and have been with a Triumph dealer in the southern US for just under 3 years. I'll never claim to know it all, but if I don't know, I won't blow smoke up anybodies arse, and do my best to find out the answer. I have been wrenching on high end auto's since the early 70's growing up in a family owned shop in NY. I held an ASE master cert for 20 years, and a NY State inspectors license for 25. I started working on bikes as a kid. I'm also BMW, and soon to be Ducati certified. In short, i've been elbow deep in engines for most of my life. I have a clue
As for the engine rattle. It's a problem on mostly earlier bikes, and while the engine can sound like a diesel, the odds of it causing an engine failure is low. I've only had two instances of it so far. The problem is how the gears were machined, causing a poor mating between the crank, key and gear. Why Triumph hasn't gone across the boards with an SB on it. Not enough failures, and not seen as a safety issue would be my educated guess. We've sold about 25 R3's, and also service other sold elsewhere, and only having two with the noise is a pretty low ratio. Hell, they haven't done a thing about the broken spoke issue that has been ongoing on the Bonnie's, and when a spoke goes through a tire at speed, were talkin a real safety issue. As flip implied, I'm not in the front office, so there's only so much info I can get my hands on.
As for my comments on the 10K valve check / adjustment. The dealers do it at 10K because that's what Triumph recomends. The engine has had ample time to break in, and valves seated well. The early mileage on the engine is the time when the most ware is done, so I completely understand why they want them checked at 10K. They also said dureing training, that more then likely, if you adjust at 10K, you'll more then likely not have to touch them again for almost the life of the bike. As a tech when you check something, and more often then not it doesn't need servicing, you tend to form the opinion that it's wasted time. Time is money folks. This isn't at home with a brew by your side, Grateful Dead blaring from the boom box, and playin with the bike on a sunday afternoon. Doing valve adjustment on a R3 is a pain in the arse, and you can make more money doing other jobs. This is pretty big to a guy who's working flat rate.
People have been marking stuff on their cars and bikes since I was a little cuss to assure the tech does the job. Who's to say that the tech can't just clean your markings off. How do you know he did it or not. I still do the check at 10K, but the techs I've spoken to that have since stopped doing it, do not charge for it, and the service price is adjusted acordingly. The way we do it with the BMW's is listen to the bike, and ride it prior to the actual service. If it sounds like the valves are loose, or it's not running well, we check the valves. Their latest engines don't even need them checked till 18K. The meterial the parts are being made of has much to do with this. In the future, you'll see bikes going 50K before you have to touch the valves.
As for doing a compression check to us as a guage for checking the valve adjustment. It's a BS method to be honest. Valve lash needs to be checked the old fassion way. Again, the meterials used in the valve train are far tougher then in years past, so they tend to stay in spec.
Something I'd like to make a note of I've learned about internet forums. We tend to only look at our own little world, and don't look at the bik picture. Howmany of a model is sold world wide, and how many have the problem. Quite often, what is actually a fairly isolated problem, looks like massive issue on a model spcific forum. There's also good info to be found often, and great people to discuss stuff with.
Cheers
As for the engine rattle. It's a problem on mostly earlier bikes, and while the engine can sound like a diesel, the odds of it causing an engine failure is low. I've only had two instances of it so far. The problem is how the gears were machined, causing a poor mating between the crank, key and gear. Why Triumph hasn't gone across the boards with an SB on it. Not enough failures, and not seen as a safety issue would be my educated guess. We've sold about 25 R3's, and also service other sold elsewhere, and only having two with the noise is a pretty low ratio. Hell, they haven't done a thing about the broken spoke issue that has been ongoing on the Bonnie's, and when a spoke goes through a tire at speed, were talkin a real safety issue. As flip implied, I'm not in the front office, so there's only so much info I can get my hands on.
As for my comments on the 10K valve check / adjustment. The dealers do it at 10K because that's what Triumph recomends. The engine has had ample time to break in, and valves seated well. The early mileage on the engine is the time when the most ware is done, so I completely understand why they want them checked at 10K. They also said dureing training, that more then likely, if you adjust at 10K, you'll more then likely not have to touch them again for almost the life of the bike. As a tech when you check something, and more often then not it doesn't need servicing, you tend to form the opinion that it's wasted time. Time is money folks. This isn't at home with a brew by your side, Grateful Dead blaring from the boom box, and playin with the bike on a sunday afternoon. Doing valve adjustment on a R3 is a pain in the arse, and you can make more money doing other jobs. This is pretty big to a guy who's working flat rate.
People have been marking stuff on their cars and bikes since I was a little cuss to assure the tech does the job.
Who's to say that the tech can't just clean your markings off. How do you know he did it or not. I still do the check at 10K, but the techs I've spoken to that have since stopped doing it, do not charge for it, and the service price is adjusted acordingly. The way we do it with the BMW's is listen to the bike, and ride it prior to the actual service. If it sounds like the valves are loose, or it's not running well, we check the valves. Their latest engines don't even need them checked till 18K. The meterial the parts are being made of has much to do with this. In the future, you'll see bikes going 50K before you have to touch the valves.As for doing a compression check to us as a guage for checking the valve adjustment. It's a BS method to be honest. Valve lash needs to be checked the old fassion way. Again, the meterials used in the valve train are far tougher then in years past, so they tend to stay in spec.
Something I'd like to make a note of I've learned about internet forums. We tend to only look at our own little world, and don't look at the bik picture. Howmany of a model is sold world wide, and how many have the problem. Quite often, what is actually a fairly isolated problem, looks like massive issue on a model spcific forum. There's also good info to be found often, and great people to discuss stuff with.
Cheers
Last edited:
RADEMIS
Supercharged
Thank you,
Thanks for taking the time to give us your opinion and clear a few things up. I have always done my own work on car engines, but have never tore down a bike engine. I have done many timing chains on chevy 350's and such. I have also been known to be cheap about some repairs. ( sightglass, in your opinion ) could I just change out the crankshaft sprocket and leave the origional chain and the two upper cam sprockets? maybe just a few gaskets, a crank sprocket, new key, and re-adjust the guide tensioners. Or am I dreaming That it could be only this simple? thanks Rademis
Thanks for taking the time to give us your opinion and clear a few things up. I have always done my own work on car engines, but have never tore down a bike engine. I have done many timing chains on chevy 350's and such. I have also been known to be cheap about some repairs. ( sightglass, in your opinion ) could I just change out the crankshaft sprocket and leave the origional chain and the two upper cam sprockets? maybe just a few gaskets, a crank sprocket, new key, and re-adjust the guide tensioners. Or am I dreaming That it could be only this simple? thanks Rademis
Rademis
That would be great but I would bet then you have to use the old style lower sproket. Then what good are you doing??Great question Rad..Iam sure Sightglass will know. Planing mine In advance even though no problems yet..Jack
That would be great but I would bet then you have to use the old style lower sproket. Then what good are you doing??Great question Rad..Iam sure Sightglass will know. Planing mine In advance even though no problems yet..Jack
Sightglass
.020 Over
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2007
- Messages
- 26
The last one I did, the only thing I changed was the sprocket, and key. The chain is tougher then you would think. The biggest peoblem is holding the cams. If you release the cam chain tensioner with out holding the cams, they jump timing, and can be a pain to set back up if you haven't done it a few times. Triumph has a special tool for holding the cams, T3880202 and runs around 70 USD. I haven't found another way to hold the cams. The head on the R3 is an interfereance type, and you can crash the valves if your off too much. The timing marks suck. There not what is shown in the sercive manual where it's a dot on the gear, and a mark right above it on the case. It's actually about 45 degrees to the left of the crank, and the mark is on the crank itself and case, not the gear. I have to rest my head on the lift, dam near upside down with a light to see them. There's a mark on the case at a hole in the casting. the crank runs behind the hole, and that's where you look for the second mark. My neck hurts just thinking about it:kk:
In theory it's pretty simple, and it's not all that bad once you've done it a few times. A small block chevy chain and gear replacment is like tying your shoes. The R3 is like tying them after your hands were stepped on by a fat chick in jack boots, with one eye closed, a wicked hangover, and an old Italian women yelling at you in broken english
The trick is getting the chain on with no slack on the right side so when the tensioner is installed, and the engine rotated a few times, the markings on the cams, and crank all line up. A small block is simplistic because you don't have to deal with a tensioning device.I'm not saying that the average guy with some skills can't do it, just that it's not as simple as it looks on paper, and much care has to be taken.
Cheers
RADEMIS
Supercharged
Thanks for the info. Rademis
britman
Nitrous
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,402
- Location
- Fredericksburg, Virginia
- Ride
- 2005 Rocket 3/2014 Moto Guzzi Touring
Sightglass,
Good replies to the frustration directed your way. Speaking as a former member of the Paint Can Rattle club I can attest to how much better the bike runs after having the fix. My dealership changed sprockets, chain and guides. I understand the chance of failure is low, but on my bike the noise was horrendous. Again welcome to the form, and your input will most valuable during our sometimes heated discussions. Even the Walton's occasionally got pissed at John Boy.
Good replies to the frustration directed your way. Speaking as a former member of the Paint Can Rattle club I can attest to how much better the bike runs after having the fix. My dealership changed sprockets, chain and guides. I understand the chance of failure is low, but on my bike the noise was horrendous. Again welcome to the form, and your input will most valuable during our sometimes heated discussions. Even the Walton's occasionally got pissed at John Boy.
Britman
Heated disscussions are how we learn from one another. On other Rocket sites and to local friends, I have always touted this site as the one with the most correct information. I have seen so much incorrect info on other sites I would like this one to remain the best info. out there. So when I read some B.S. and no one speaks up just to keep peace,you can count on me..As long as I'am sure and have researched the subject (hombre) Te He Crazy Jack
Heated disscussions are how we learn from one another. On other Rocket sites and to local friends, I have always touted this site as the one with the most correct information. I have seen so much incorrect info on other sites I would like this one to remain the best info. out there. So when I read some B.S. and no one speaks up just to keep peace,you can count on me..As long as I'am sure and have researched the subject (hombre) Te He Crazy Jack
