Non return valve update

Mike Rocket

Rocket 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2017
Messages
739
Location
East Anglia, England
Ride
2014 Rocket 3 Roadster
Just an update to my previous post for your information.
My 2014 Rocket oil tank level was dropping by about 3/4 inch in 24 hours while standing. Almost empty In 3 days. No external leaks. On start up the scavenge pumps quickly return the oil to the tank and the oil light extinguishes in a second.
I decided to change the non return valve and dropped the sump and renewed the valve. While it was on the bench I removed the pick up screens for cleaning and was astounded at the amount of trash both the screens had stopped. No metal shavings just bits of rubber gasket and general debris, it looked like the screens were 25% restricted. I cleaned them and put it all back together. I believe this is the first strip down since the engine was built in the factory.
When I attempted to torque up the sump bolts to 12nm as the manual says the torque wrench did not want to crack off at 12nm and it felt like the bolts were going to strip or snap, so I lowered the setting to 10nm and they cracked off fine. The torque wrench is a new one with a calibration certificate so I have confidence it is correct. ( I also remembered a post from some time ago of someone torquing their sump bolts to 12 nm and snapping one in the engine, so I was already wary of doing the same)
Now the result:
After running up the engine to operating temp. and checking the oil level over 3 days the oil level still drains down to the sump so it wasn't the non return, in fact I have no idea now why this happens, but having been a member of this great site for almost 3 years and reading about this oil drop when standing unused for a week or so I must come to the conclusion it is normal.
Triumph obviously know about it because of the way they tell you to run the engine before checking the oil level.
I suppose it's just a quirk of this bike. My previous Rocket drained down too although not as quickly as this one.
The thing that worries me slightly is the slightly longer time it takes for the oil pressure light to extinguish when the oil tank is empty. ( probably only a1/2 second longer though)
As I bought it second hand with 12000 miles on the clock I assume the oil level always did drop when standing and the previous owner and most of the other owners don't actually check the oil level before starting up after standing overnight but just recheck after running it for a minute or two and by then the scavenge pumps have done their job.
I hav'nt seen any posts on here of wrecked engines due to lack of oil so I have to believe all is working as it is designed by Triumph.
Sorry to drone on about this but I have been concerned in case there was a fault with my bike, but two bikes acting the same cannot be defective.
It hasn't been a waste of time as the pick up screens are now clear.
From now on I shall just accept it is all ok and just ride.
Any comments still welcome though.
 
Great write up. And yes I've seen the debris in the screens even machining swarf from build. I always warn people not to freak out when they pull the sump pan unless there is a lot of bearing debris in the rear below the torsional damper bearing. And now we know why there is a fine screen on each sump port. If it weren't for them we would be sending all that trash thru the scavenger pumps to the tank. I will be looking to see if there is a way to make sure the pressure relief valve is closing completely but it is internal and attached to the pump. Glad your feeling better about your engine. There's nothing worse then riding around wondering if its going to fail.
 
Mike, thanks for the update. I would offer one bit of constructive feedback (don't take it personally) and that is to update the original thread vs starting a new one. It adds closure.

As to oil draining down into the sump... mine has done it since new. No issues.... just start it up and ride. :)
 
Great write up. And yes I've seen the debris in the screens even machining swarf from build. I always warn people not to freak out when they pull the sump pan unless there is a lot of bearing debris in the rear below the torsional damper bearing. And now we know why there is a fine screen on each sump port. If it weren't for them we would be sending all that trash thru the scavenger pumps to the tank. I will be looking to see if there is a way to make sure the pressure relief valve is closing completely but it is internal and attached to the pump. Glad your feeling better about your engine. There's nothing worse then riding around wondering if its going to fail.
Thanks for your reply and advice so far. Much appreciated.
 
Great write up. And yes I've seen the debris in the screens even machining swarf from build. I always warn people not to freak out when they pull the sump pan unless there is a lot of bearing debris in the rear below the torsional damper bearing. And now we know why there is a fine screen on each sump port. If it weren't for them we would be sending all that trash thru the scavenger pumps to the tank. I will be looking to see if there is a way to make sure the pressure relief valve is closing completely but it is internal and attached to the pump. Glad your feeling better about your engine. There's nothing worse then riding around wondering if its going to fail.
I was also going to replace the pressure relief valve until I realised it was an engine out job. I don't know if the pressure relief valve would cause oil drain down as I think if it did not close properly the oil pressure on idle would be low and the oil pressure warning light would be on.
It must surely just be down to design.
Thanks again for your help.
 
Mike, thanks for the update. I would offer one bit of constructive feedback (don't take it personally) and that is to update the original thread vs starting a new one. It adds closure.

As to oil draining down into the sump... mine has done it since new. No issues.... just start it up and ride. :)
Thanks for that. No offence taken.
 
I was also going to replace the pressure relief valve until I realised it was an engine out job. I don't know if the pressure relief valve would cause oil drain down as I think if it did not close properly the oil pressure on idle would be low and the oil pressure warning light would be on.
It must surely just be down to design.
Thanks again for your help.
I'll look into it further. I have to get down to the barn and look remove a oil pump so I can use it with the engine case I have in the basement. I sent the oil pump to a friend in OZ so I need to get at another one to help me understand the works of the chambers casted into the case. I also found a area on the case that looks like it was hand deburred thinking maybe casting shift and a high spot was or is manually deburred. I question if it could creat a slow leak down. My finger is pointing to the area. You can see the difference in the machined /deburred surfaces. Not sure if it is clear in the picture.
20200512_092747.jpg
but its just on the outside of the bolt hole my finger is pointing to. Here is a blow up screen shot if its not to distorted you might be able to see it clearer.
Screenshot_20200512-095422_Gallery.jpg
it has a different surface finish compared to the end mill finish on the whole face. Anyway I'll remove the pressure relief valve to see if I can figure out its pressure setting. All this might take a little time as the wifey is off work today and I've been married over 37 years ;) oh and I'll be correcting my fat finger typo's :)
 
What! - Scott you're slacking in your frail dotage. Would have thought you'd have jigged up a tool to get that all even by now. I am dismayed!
My first thoughts are from the size of the end mill tracks about 10 mm and the fact that the holder would have to be a extension holder. I can see the problem of the holder contacting the case. Which is why if the was any float on the casting plug it might need some hand work. They probably have someone onthe line or possibly the machinist attending to this in the deburr cycle. Which would also lend to some getting by that might leak down over time. Just guessing though.
 
My first thoughts are from the size of the end mill tracks about 10 mm and the fact that the holder would have to be a extension holder. I can see the problem of the holder contacting the case. Which is why if the was any float on the casting plug it might need some hand work. They probably have someone on the line or possibly the machinist attending to this in the deburr cycle. Which would also lend to some getting by that might leak down over time. Just guessing though.
Thanks for the info and pictures. I can see the shading change in the picture. It would be nice to know the reasons why for sure but as long as the scavenge pump works well I suppose its no problem. I am going to just ride now and not worry too much about it.
If you do work it out please let me know and if I should work it out I will post it on the site.
If I had a spare engine I would be looking into it myself.
It seems a complex design.
Thanks for the help warp9.9
 
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