DPs PCV AT worlds worst wrencher...update

[Bondysbike]

So...first , again thanks to the members of this forum. I would NEVER have had the gonads to do what I’ve done to this 2 month old Rocket without the encouragement and support from you Guys. Seriously I am the most enthusiastic but completely crap wrencher on the planet. I enjoyed every minute of it and this forum is just a fantastic support!

So recap..

Bought DP outlaws. Ruined my ride. Slower , sounded like a division of the 8th Pazer Core , hesitation ... just terrible. Triumph tech did his best but still the ride was slow and crap.
Tossed up ripping the DPs off to use as door stops and going back to stock.
Didn’t. Bought PCV and installed it. Bought H&N airbox delete kit and installed it. Got a recommendation for a map from the PC folks. Transformed !...Little to no decel popping , totally smooth and fast again.

Left it like this...for a week. I’d got the bug. So added today Auto tune to the PCV. Install straight forward after reading all the posts here. Hardest bit was pealing the bloody backing of the Velcro that came with the kit. Searched the forum for advice on this but alas there isn’t any. Eventually got it off!

Checked everything working ...it was...went for a ride. NOW HOPEFULLY MY LAST QUESTIONS ON THIS (BEFORE I INSTALL A TUNE ECU MAP SOMONE KINDLY GAVE.)

1. On my test run tonight. Bike was even quicker...no doubt. The first time I accelerated hard in second from low speed , there was a slight hesitation then whoomph... Second time I did this not so much. Third time the hesitation has perceptibly gone. So , is this how AT works. Does it take a few minutes to sort things out?

2. Through the test run ( very short about 20 mins) the bike was quick! It was quicker than when just had PCV and the map the PC tech recommended. This had alone got the bike back to being...well a Rocket.
So having now added the AT I went for a spin. It was good! The only thing is the decel popping is back. Not much , nothing like before when the 8th Panzer core was chasing me but it was back. I’d say actually it’s like it was when stock so not much but obviously you hear it more with DPs. So again , is this how AT works. Its already in this short time improved performance up a notch again but with it has returned a little decel popping. Is this inevitable as AT improves performance...does this happen. Will AT keep refining this as I accept trims? ( could my PCV map on its own have been too rich. There was no popping)

So that’s it...very proud of myself, for me fitting the DPs , stripping out the air box , fitting PCV and now the AT was a huge undertaking particularly on a brand new bike. I get anxious about every possible thing that might go wrong so there is no way I would have even thought about doing this without you guys in support.

Thanks!!!!!!! Off for beer now....

 

[Claviger]

1: The more the AT reads an AFR from a given throttle position/RPM position on the table the more it will refine it. This is why I bump my octane really high on my bike when I'm letting the AT learn a new map, so if it swings lean a couple of times, I'll have more insurance. You don't need to do the high octane thing, it'll learn just fine.
2: The popping when you close the throttle is a 2 factor thing. Factor 1: Any hot spot in the exhaust will act as an ignition source for any raw fuel coming out of the exhaust. Factor 2. The rocket ECU will completely cut fuel when you close the throttle all the way in gear, this causes the exhaust mixture to swing lean, and become very easy to ignite be the aforementioned hot spot acting as an ignition source in the pipe.

The popping is 100% a normal running condition on a bike that is running as fuel injection is designed to run, but if it really bothers you, you can eliminate it. To eliminate most of the exhaust, highlight the 0 column in the PC-V table and at 10 to whatever value is there. This will dump enough fuel during deceleration to prevent the popping by keeping it just rich enough to (mostly) not ignite. As you can imagine this will effect mileage, it will also effect the feel of the on/off throttle transition, it should smooth it a little bit.

Other notes:
- Don't keep accepting AT tables forever, eventually, you'll end up with some too lean spots in the map. If you've accepted them twice now, stop and leave it. It will continue to tune as you ride and if you left it with 20% authority it will work itself into what it considers a "perfect" tune over time.
- Don't let the AT keep tuning below 2000 RPM if it feels good now down there. Reversion between exhaust pulses will cause weird values to be generated, especially using a 3 into 1 exhaust setup with an open core muffler. Try and set your table something like the one below.

 

[Bondysbike]

1: The more the AT reads an AFR from a given throttle position/RPM position on the table the more it will refine it. This is why I bump my octane really high on my bike when I'm letting the AT learn a new map, so if it swings lean a couple of times, I'll have more insurance. You don't need to do the high octane thing, it'll learn just fine.
2: The popping when you close the throttle is a 2 factor thing. Factor 1: Any hot spot in the exhaust will act as an ignition source for any raw fuel coming out of the exhaust. Factor 2. The rocket ECU will completely cut fuel when you close the throttle all the way in gear, this causes the exhaust mixture to swing lean, and become very easy to ignite be the aforementioned hot spot acting as an ignition source in the pipe.

The popping is 100% a normal running condition on a bike that is running as fuel injection is designed to run, but if it really bothers you, you can eliminate it. To eliminate most of the exhaust, highlight the 0 column in the PC-V table and at 10 to whatever value is there. This will dump enough fuel during deceleration to prevent the popping by keeping it just rich enough to (mostly) not ignite. As you can imagine this will effect mileage, it will also effect the feel of the on/off throttle transition, it should smooth it a little bit.

Other notes:
- Don't keep accepting AT tables forever, eventually, you'll end up with some too lean spots in the map. If you've accepted them twice now, stop and leave it. It will continue to tune as you ride and if you left it with 20% authority it will work itself into what it considers a "perfect" tune over time.
- Don't let the AT keep tuning below 2000 RPM if it feels good now down there. Reversion between exhaust pulses will cause weird values to be generated, especially using a 3 into 1 exhaust setup with an open core muffler. Try and set your table something like the one below.

That’s outstanding...thank you...

 

[scot in exile]

A Scouser who could not peel the back off of velcro now that must surprise a few diddymen put your Outlaws up for sale someone will buy them.

 

[Bondysbike]

A Scouser who could not peel the back off of velcro now that must surprise a few diddymen put your Outlaws up for sale someone will buy them.

Lol...

 

[barbagris]

Building a bit on what Rob says. One thing I have done with my AT is reduce the range of the AutoTune once the base trims are in. Stock is plus/minus 20% I have dropped mine to 10. And I truely recommend map/gear mode.

 

[Bondysbike]

Building a bit on what Rob says. One thing I have done with my AT is reduce the range of the AutoTune once the base trims are in. Stock is plus/minus 20% I have dropped mine to 10. And I truely recommend map/gear mode.

This is good thanks...when you very first installed the AT...how long before you accepted 1st trims , then the second.
I’ve literally on just installed it and ridden say 4 miles. When would you recommend I go in the 1st time and accept?

 

[Claviger]

I generally go out and ride it in a variety of circumstances. Cruising, drag strip runs, go to 2000 RPM in 3rd gear (preferably going up-hill) and hold it open at 10/20/40/60/80/100 percent throttle all the way to redline and do it a few times. A good long ride, like an hour or two at least, cruise at 30, 40, 50, 60 etc etc vary the conditions but not too fast so it has time to get good data points to sample. For example, when training the AT, I'll get on the freeway and go 60/70/80 in 2nd, then same 60/70/80 in 3rd etc etc for various throttle positions.

I look in the trim table for anywhere it may be adjusting for -20 or +20, showing it's maxed out the adjustment authority of the Autotune. If nothing is maxed out, I accept trims and then don't accept trims again. From there, I datalog a bunch of rides and do manual fine tuning in the table based on the datalog. Once I've got it to where the autotune is only adjusting +/- 5% I then go into TuneECU and translate the percentage changes into the appropriate areas in the tables, keeping in mind to only factor in values where the F table is used. Load the new TuneECU file into the bike, zero out the adjusted areas in the PC-V and do the whole process once more time.

Part of the validation of the table for me, includes some very high speed runs through 4th and 5th since airlfow into the intake changes at extreme speeds. The AT learns very well what it needs to do for example blasting from 80-170 in 5th at full throttle a few times, one or two pulls gets you very closely tuned.

After a couple of revisions, you'll end up with a good tailor made tune for your motorcycle. There's some interpretation in the areas of TuneECU that do not have correlating PC-V columns. For example the 25/30/35/50/70 columns in TuneECU must be interpolated manually using the known logged values in the 5/10/15/20/40/60/80/100 columns from the PC-V.

To do this thoroughly requires a POD-300 for three reasons: Datalogging and reading throttle percent while riding to hold it accurately at the desired value while the AT is learning as you sweep through the RPM and the third reason, so you can back out of the throttle if you start seeing 15s or higher at any point while teaching the AT. If thats the case, go in and manually add fuel the the areas where it swung lean.

THIS process is, imho, the only viable way to street tune a high power bike, its illegal everywhere except Germany, it's dangerous, and it's a little bit risky to the motor's health if done wrong. ALL very good reasons to spend the money on going to a dyno and getting it done right!

I hope that helps and isn't just a bunch of gibberish?!

 

[Bondysbike]

I generally go out and ride it in a variety of circumstances. Cruising, drag strip runs, go to 2000 RPM in 3rd gear (preferably going up-hill) and hold it open at 10/20/40/60/80/100 percent throttle all the way to redline and do it a few times. A good long ride, like an hour or two at least, cruise at 30, 40, 50, 60 etc etc vary the conditions but not too fast so it has time to get good data points to sample. For example, when training the AT, I'll get on the freeway and go 60/70/80 in 2nd, then same 60/70/80 in 3rd etc etc for various throttle positions.

I look in the trim table for anywhere it may be adjusting for -20 or +20, showing it's maxed out the adjustment authority of the Autotune. If nothing is maxed out, I accept trims and then don't accept trims again. From there, I datalog a bunch of rides and do manual fine tuning in the table based on the datalog. Once I've got it to where the autotune is only adjusting +/- 5% I then go into TuneECU and translate the percentage changes into the appropriate areas in the tables, keeping in mind to only factor in values where the F table is used. Load the new TuneECU file into the bike, zero out the adjusted areas in the PC-V and do the whole process once more time.

Part of the validation of the table for me, includes some very high speed runs through 4th and 5th since airlfow into the intake changes at extreme speeds. The AT learns very well what it needs to do for example blasting from 80-170 in 5th at full throttle a few times, one or two pulls gets you very closely tuned.

After a couple of revisions, you'll end up with a good tailor made tune for your motorcycle. There's some interpretation in the areas of TuneECU that do not have correlating PC-V columns. For example the 25/30/35/50/70 columns in TuneECU must be interpolated manually using the known logged values in the 5/10/15/20/40/60/80/100 columns from the PC-V.

To do this thoroughly requires a POD-300 for three reasons: Datalogging and reading throttle percent while riding to hold it accurately at the desired value while the AT is learning as you sweep through the RPM and the third reason, so you can back out of the throttle if you start seeing 15s or higher at any point while teaching the AT. If thats the case, go in and manually add fuel the the areas where it swung lean.

THIS process is, imho, the only viable way to street tune a high power bike, its illegal everywhere except Germany, it's dangerous, and it's a little bit risky to the motor's health if done wrong. ALL very good reasons to spend the money on going to a dyno and getting it done right!

I hope that helps and isn't just a bunch of gibberish?!

Again thanks...this is great to know!