Dobeck Performance GEN 4 - AFR PLUS

[Vinkster]

I wanted to get a thread started to consolidate information about this product. There are already plenty of Power Commander III (PC3) and Power Commander V (PCV) threads with tips and tricks. Since this product looks to be a less expensive and possibly better alternative, I assume this will be a hot item and there will be many questions.

Please post anything you know about this product.

I just ordered my Dobeck Performance GEN 4 - AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) PLUS from Dillon at Dobeck Performance. I expect delivery in mid January. I went this route vs PCV/AT due to price and ease of use. I currently have a PCIII installed on my 2010 R3R installed by my dealer before I found out the limitations of the PCIII on 2010+ models. My goal is to get moderately more power, reduce exhaust temp, smooth out decel, and give me the ability to tune AFR on the fly for fuel economy on long trips. I have Wrapped Jardines and triple K&Ns. I will update when I get the AFR+ installed and tested. I am after cost savings, so dyno runs will not be in my future.


What I know so far:

gen 4 AFR+ for Rocket III is not currently on their site. Call Dillon at Dobeck at 1-877-764-3337.

Dobeck has a gen 2 (manually adjustable with screwdriver), gen 3 (pushbutton adjustable), gen 3.5 (same as gen 3 with ability to reduce fuel as well but not available for Rocket III), gen 4 AFR+ (same as gen 3 with an ARF gauge)

gen 4 AFR+ - $325 retail ($250 after military discount)
PCV - $380 ($315 on Revzilla.com) Auto Tune - $280 ($232 at Revzilla.com)
Savings over PCV/AT - $335 ($297 if you shop around and get discounts for both)

All gen 4 AFR+ are made to order currently. You can specify light grey or black face, white or orange needle, and black or chrome bezel.

http://www.techlusion.com/GEN4/Gen4technology.asp - gen 4 AFR+

http://www.electronicjetkit.com/Cruiser/viewproduct.asp?partnumber=9130007 - gen 3 (if you want to save a few bucks and don't want the convenience of a gauge and control on the fly.

http://www.techlusion.com/shopping/viewproduct.asp?pid=102 - gen 2 (from Dobeck)

http://www.flipmeisters.com/products/dobeck-performance-tfi-controllers/ - gen 2 (from Flip)

- compare gen 2,3,4.

- understand AFR values.

- adjust gen 4 AFR+.

- AFR diagnostic mode.

You can use the gen 4 AFR+ to "Auto Tune" by entering into an O2 sensor closed loop. This is different from PC Auto Tune as this is AFR based not throttle position based.

http://www.techlusion.com/aboutdobeck.asp - Mark Dobeck was the founder of Dynojet and the Power Commander.

http://www.techlusion.com/TFI/tfivspowercommander.asp - Dobeck TFI/EJK/AFR+ vs Dynojet PC.

Other posts:

http://www.r3owners.net/threads/2-r...formance-afr-plus-to-tuneecu-long-post.16207/ - Bill (Idaho Red Rocket) details some good information about the product and allowed Dobeck Performance to use his bike in order to benefit all of us.

 

[idk]

Get TuneECU, even if you get the other things.It will cost you $20 for the cable, and it will be the most useful tool you will ever get for the bike.

 

[HansO]

I'm with Ian on that regardless what fuel management device you get get TuneECU even if it is just for maintenance and routine checking of TPS and stepper motor etc

 

[barbagris]

IMO - you've missed an option - PCV-Autotune AND TuneECU.

Whether you go Dobeck OR Dynojet there are STILL things you NEED to change with TuneECU. End of Story. There are functions in the Triumph ECU you need to disable otherwise it WILL confuse any piggyback systems you choose to add.

This is different from PC Auto Tune as this is AFR based not throttle position based.

This is unmitigated BOLLOCKS. Distrust the author.

PCV with AT is 100% AFR based. Those of us who have one - KNOW. It also uses TPS and RPM values to give the analysis better granularity. What is more it can generate a different trim map for each gear. And - and here is what matters imo - you can get into it and SEE what the trim values are and if you feel enabled - CHANGE THEM. Why does this matter? - because you can see HUGE differences as low as 250rpm apart - and FIXING the cause is better than masking it.

I do not doubt Dobecks kit works. But there is far too much smoke and mirrors in his marketing/advertising. The minute you have to compare to the opposition and belittle them - generally speaking, you have something to hide. I have been a professional technical marketing manager for a fortune 50 company - I would have sacked employees for such obvious FUD. This alone puts me off his gear. Right from day one.

I also know enough about gas sampling/analysis/predictive modelling (My first job was emulating Nuclear Reactor Meltdowns with pretty near endless budget for kit) to pretty much debug either system. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REAL TIME ADJUSTMENT. Why? the sampling and subsequent analysis takes place AFTER the event. So the aim is to predict what is needed to get the right bang.

Depending on the processor and sensor speed and sensitivity - the analysis results will always lag. It could be 100's (even 1000's) of rpms out. Hence the need to predict. And believe me the processors used in both the Dobeck and Dynojet are NOT supercomputers. They're very basic processors. I'm pretty sure that if I could be bothered - I could develop one using a USD25 ARM processor based Raspberry Pi computer. I cant be bothered though.

The O2 sensors used by Dobeck and Dynojet are NOT top spec - a good sensor is more expensive than a Dobeck setup (including the sales margins for them and their retailers). Top Dyno guys get through USD300 sensors weekly or more. These are retail grade sensors - probably cost 30bucks at trade price - if that. Neither Dynojet or Dobeck explain that this means the sensor accuracy is NOT certified as 100% and that they WILL wander as they age. This means the fuelling adjustments WILL wander too.

THE BEST SOLUTION IS - GET A DECENT BESPOKE DYNO TUNE DONE BY AN EXPERT, WHO ACTUALLY SETS THE VALUES INTO THE STOCK ECU.

Dobeck may have been in Dynojet a long time ago - but has not been for ages. This is like saying Henry Royce knows about the RB211 Jet Engine or even the Merlin (of Spitfire fame) because he was a founder of Rolls Royce. Yes I know he's dead.

There are already Dobeck followers who've started threads btw. They're happy, and I am happy for them. I cant fault you for electing the Dobeck on price - and I'm sure it will bring benefit.

But trying to tune a modern EFI system as if it's analogue carburettor fed is a serious misunderstanding of WHAT digitally tuning EFI can give you.

Please don't take offence - I just have a serious HATRED of been hoodwinked - and Mr Dobeck is trying to do so imo.

 

[HansO]

Well said Chris

 

[barbagris]

btw - just discovered this.

As Mr D makes so much of LOAD TECHNOLOGY - I thought I'd see how PHYSICS describes engine load. Ones interest was piqued, one did not know and one had time on ones hands.

The definition of LOAD -

LOAD_PCT = [current airflow] / [(peak airflow at WOT@STP as a function of rpm) * (BARO/29.92) * SQRT(298/(AAT+273))].

This is the standardised OBD-II definition of load. Really an indication of Volumetric efficiency. it's CALCULATED - not actually measured.

But as the R3 and most bikes do not have OBD-II this value is not available from the stock ECU - and unless somebody has found an airflow sensor in their R3 (unless it's somehow magic'd from Intake Air Temp) - it's a fuzzy calculated value. And I'll put money on secondary butterfly presence/position affecting this. Who am I kidding - I know it does.

In fact is (iirc) that "current airflow" value, is the value manually fed into the stock ECU fuel table "cells" by Triumph and manipulable in Tune ECU for given TPS vs RPM values. - "milligrams air per second ". Thanks Tom/Alain.

Any piggyback system almost certainly needs TPS to calculate current/peak value, and RPMs naturally. Barometric pressure and ambient Air temp. These last two are certainly available to the stock ECU - but I doubt it's sent through the injector/fuelling harness - there's no reason to - though I'm open to correction.

God I love Maths, Physics and Chemistry.

 

[Idaho Red Rocket 3]

A good bit of effort is being put into refuting the value of the Dobeck Performance AFR Plus. I don't understand why. It is a quality product that delivers a realistic valuable useable result. It is relatively inexpensive and somewhat simple to install and operate yourself. No harm to the bike and only give you benefits. Chris I am befuddled why you are being condescending about the Dobeck products. I spent 2 days working closely in a tiny Dyno room with Mark Dobeck and then many subsequent hours with him and his team developing the program for the AFR Plus for the Rocket III. Mark is an honorable man and I have not seen him belittle the competition or have ill will towards them. After all DynoJet was his baby at one time. Marks devices are simple and functional and produce good results. The AFR Plus is a good device and work VERY well. Have you installed one to compare it to PC5 ? Owners have a choice on how much money they spend to achieve a good performance boost without depleting the bank account. Dobeck may be a different approach to get to a quality performance enhancement, but if you think about it, a Rocket III is a different approach to motorcycling, surely we can agree on that. We all love the Rocket III, so let us who choose "going our own way" do so even with our choices for performance gains. We who have choose the Dobeck Performance AFR Plus enjoy the benefits of the product and the relative simplicity of the installation and use of the product. We have many choices for accessory products for these bikes. Tires, oil, intake/exhaust, gasoline types/ brands, seats, bags, screens, and so on. Heck even the women we choose are different. We don't belittle the manufactures and fellow owners who choose something different. Think how different we are as owners of Rocket III motorcycles. Or even as Triumph owners.

Stated with love of motorcycling and fellow enthusiasts. Merry Christmas to all who celebrate.

Bill

 

[STRIPES]

Well said, Idaho!

 

[barbagris]

I don't have any doubts that Dobecks kit works. I've always said so.

What I dislike is the marketing cloud - this may not be Mr Dobecks doing - but it reflects on his company. And some of it SEEMS to be frankly misdirection. If a product can stand on it's own merits then it will. You don't need to misdirect - simply show what you can do.

I like to mine data - it's part of who I am. As far as I can see the Dobeck would not offer me any.

 

[steve59]

I started a post that became a rant so I deleted it , but my thoughts may echo so, First todays economy is nothing like it was 10 years ago when I could throw $5000. or more when I felt like it, I am not mechanically inclined(any more) seems you need specialty tools just to change spark plugs once you find them! The Doebek, if aimed at riders like myself who want cheap bolt on power that allows us to outrun stockers but not risk warranty or premature engine wear Don't understand what 1/2 the sales pitch means, being key in advertising EASY,SAFE,POWER. if those 3 are met the rest is babble to my ears/eyes. the only other factor is price vs performance per dollar.Fact is a lot of us can't find a qualified mech to dyno tune our bikes without making things worse or even blowing up the motor.
**** I'm just a dumbass harley convert what do I know?